Issues with the transgender ideology (And wizardposting)

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Honestly Agora Road seems to have becoming more of a conservative politic / conspiracy forum instead of a vaporware / nostalgia / entertainment / creative activities forum this place initially tried to be. It gives me a r/donald & banned right wing subreddits in general vibe now considering threads like this are gaining traction, while threads about arcade and art tend to be dead quickly.
I guess that's why this place hates >redditcostanzayeahrightsmirk so much because your average poster here is a >redditcostanzayeahrightsmirk reject.
i wouldn't even try to characterize this forum like that. i hope i'm not wrong when i think the hope is to try and keep this place from becoming fully "owned" by either side of the kulturkampf because there's plenty of full socjus and full "idw/altright" places on the net and they're all desperately fucking terrible to read or post on. TQ threads are the fastest way for either side to gain a beach head and they should be demolished on sight. nobody has anything new to bring to the table on the issue anyway.

the entire non->redditcostanzayeahrightsmirk internet is a ">redditcostanzayeahrightsmirk reject" because the purpose of >redditcostanzayeahrightsmirk is to suck everything up into it's own massive walled irrigated factory garden.
 
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LostintheCycle

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Ok, pedo apologist. Now go back to r*ddit.
You are blinded by a totally false, unempathetic view of people by their "group" rather than what they actually are, which is just people who are mentally unwell in some particular way, yet you believe they are an "enemy" because that is your mob's mentality, and because you don't have any real problems to face. You could very easily ignore them, you choose not to. I don't buy your bullshit that they took my hobbies away from me, they didn't do anything like that. You're just letting them live in your head.
Consider a different website.
 
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Jessica3cho雪血⊜青意

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1. Laws allowing children to transition and receive hormone therapy or surgery without parents consent is not ok.
Hello New Fren, interesting choice in a first post. Currently, I see this thread has 6 pages. I have not read them. I have no read anything past your first post. but I have read your entire original post. This is not a post supporting one stance or another. I would simply like to respond to what I have quoted and no more (in this post, at least).

I agree with this statement. Luckily, at least here in the US, there is no law that allows this. Children are allowed to speak to doctors without their parents consent, they are allowed to undergo the extensive therapy and psychoanalysis of their dysphoria without parental consent, and they are allowed to dress how they like without parental consent. Laws do not allow, though, children, under the medical age of consent (this is not the sexual age of consent), to undergo extensive surgery of any kind, unless their life is in danger or other exigent circumstances exist, begin long-term hormone therapy or any other major procedure, or begin use of puberty blockers or any chemically-altering medication.
 
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Jessica3cho雪血⊜青意

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You claim to know so much about forums yet you can't even practice the basic forum etiquette of refraining from double posting, rather you went all in on +10 back to back posts. Bravo my guy.
Imagine being so gay that you care about >redditcostanzayeahrightsmirk practices like double posting. Zoomer alert.
 
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Jessica3cho雪血⊜青意

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Double posting is acceptable conduct on a forum sometimes, if multiple messages is a better way to conduct a post than a single message(and even then, usually just edit unless enough time has passed). There's several reasons why posting more than twice is BAD PRACTICE on a forum. It is very disrespectful to the owners of the forum, as each new message adds more to be stored(time data, formatting data etc, not so relevant now, but in 2000s this was quite relevant). It is disrespectful to users on the site as you keep bumping this thread to the top of the new posts list. It is disrespectful to people reading the thread as you are wasting a lot of their vertical screen estate, and making it hard for them to reply to you. It is disrespectful for people searching the forums, as the search functionality functions on posts and each one of your posts pollutes that.

Additionally, use the search before making a new thread. If you had, you'd find multiple threads that address the topic already. I've done the hard work for you and I'll post them here:
  1. https://forum.agoraroad.com/index.php?threads/deleuzian-analysis-of-transgenderism.5181/
  2. https://forum.agoraroad.com/index.php?threads/lain-and-zoomers.5411/
  3. https://forum.agoraroad.com/index.p...dont-see-the-connection-to-trans-people.5233/
  4. There was a deleted thread by @Yabba recently that exhausted a lot of discussion about it
It's clear to me you're new to the forums as you've posted very little before. Respect the forum culture, don't mass bump threads, check for older threads before posting(necro'ing is shamed on other forums, but not so much here)... or people here will think you're a massive shithead. FYI, I already think you're a massive shithead from the way you've kept on bumping when others were telling you to stop. As for your OP, don't expect people to respond to it thoughtfully if you're shitting up the thread.

I also want to ask others who are reading this thread. Personally, I'm getting very sick of these "LGBTQ" and "Trans" threads and posts that I'm seeing more and more often- shouldn't there be a containment general thread for these discussions? I say containment because the threads linked above quickly derailed into flame wars. The thread Yabba had served this well, but without that, I can see there being more of this crap polluting the forum. What makes it worse is it seems to be coming from a lot of new posters who don't really know how to create a good thread, and seem so mentally overencumbered they strike up a flame war instead.
Your gatekeeping is very gay and makes me want to shit up threads more than I did before. PepSiDawgwitcan
This is a vaporwave forum. If you go to general threads or current events threads and complain about "OmG I kEeP sEeInG pEoPlE tAlK aBoUt cUrReNt EvEnTs In ThEiR aPpRoPrIaTe PlAcE", then go to a different thread category, or, I don't know... stop looking at them.
 
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bnuungus

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Laws do not allow, though, children, under the medical age of consent (this is not the sexual age of consent), to undergo extensive surgery of any kind, unless their life is in danger or other exigent circumstances exist, begin long-term hormone therapy or any other major procedure, or begin use of puberty blockers or any chemically-altering medication.
Fun fact, due to some intentionally vague wording in a proposal that got passed during midterm elections last year, there's debates as to whether or not kids might legally be allowed to undergo hormone therapy in my state. I kind of see if as a weak argument but the fact that the argument can be made in the first place kind of terrifies me.
 
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Jessica3cho雪血⊜青意

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Fun fact, due to some intentionally vague wording in a proposal that got passed during midterm elections last year, there's debates as to whether or not kids might legally be allowed to undergo hormone therapy in my state. I kind of see if as a weak argument but the fact that the argument can be made in the first place kind of terrifies me.
Law is an unfortunate bungaloo of a mess in any state, but that's why we have the Supreme Court and typically they tend to rule on constitutional grounds or by popular opinion. There are a lot of vaguely worded laws with the intent to allow better state control over citizens, but I wouldn't see much coming of that. If it does go sideways and people are allowed to begin using that vague wording to allow medical minors to consent to things outside the scope of what they should be allowed to consent to, I'd love to be kept up to date on the situation.
 
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bnuungus

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Law is an unfortunate bungaloo of a mess in any state, but that's why we have the Supreme Court and typically they tend to rule on constitutional grounds or by popular opinion. There are a lot of vaguely worded laws with the intent to allow better state control over citizens, but I wouldn't see much coming of that. If it does go sideways and people are allowed to begin using that vague wording to allow medical minors to consent to things outside the scope of what they should be allowed to consent to, I'd love to be kept up to date on the situation.
Yeah I don't think anything will come of it either, at least for a while. And yeah if anything does end up happening I'll make a thread
 
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0-Star-Candy-0

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After considering your points and some others my friend made, my opinion has changed quite a bit. I still think therapy first and foremost is the correct approach. To summarize my new opinions;
1. There are distinct categories of trans individuals.
A. Truly trans. People whose consciousness is indistinguishable from a gender different from that of their body. Their "spirit" is, was, and will always be mismatched with their body.
B. Mentally ill trans. People who fully believe they are a different gender than they were born as.
C. Misinformed or confused trans. People who think they fit in with other trans because they experience gender envy or gender dysphoria but who don't exhibit the distinctions of the previous two categories.
I personally think most of the trans population falls into category c.
2. Yes, this means I do believe there exists real trans people, and yes, I now believe space should be made for them, including safe spaces and rights. However, not everything the trans community asks for should be given to them. Namely, anything involving minors (especially any form of cosmetic surgery. Honestly all children cosmetic surgery should be banned if it's to take them beyond standard, like kids whose parents make them get nose jobs to look prettier.), or rights allowing trans individuals to unfairly compete against a gender their body doesn't match, due to biological bias like muscle mass, etc. this doesn't mean it can't happen, I just think separate competitions should be made with this distinction. lastly, trans individuals should not be allowed to use a bathroom or any other private room like it that does not match their body's gender. I can't think of other things that should be denied atm.
3. We cannot, for the most part, distinguish individuals between the categories externally, due to the distinctions being unrecognized. Trans will even shift between categories, making it harder to determine which they are. First and foremost, we should use therapy to help them settle into a category. I don't even know if it's possible, but I think we should try. Then, we should treat based on category:
A. Truly trans. It is not 100% possible yet to make their bodies match their spirit. Therefore we should try to make them comfortable with the body they do have. They should know and understand they are exactly a mind with a different gender than their body. It is sadly not possible for them to engage in activities that require the gender matching their mind. Trans women can't get pregnant, and can't have a period. Trans men can't produce semen, and can't make someone pregnant with their body. There are still prosthetics that can imitate these processes, and if a trans individual so chooses, they can sort of get closer to their mind gender through use of these prosthetics. Therapy should be for them like therapy for a burn victim. A burn victim receives therapy to become comfortable with their scars, scars they wish they didn't have, instead wishing for pristine skin. They understand that they are scarred, and the scars don't make them any less of the person they were before. The only way to prevent scarring from burns is through drastic and painful treatment, and it's usually never perfect. Gender affirming care will also never be perfect, but it will somewhat bring an individual closer to their desired gender. During gender affirming care, however, we should refrain from performing surgery that doesn't improve quality of life. Top surgery is ok, but the body physically can't handle bottom surgery. A trans female who receives bottom surgery will spend the rest of their life dilating their vagina so it doesn't close and applying medicine and taking antibiotics so it doesn't get infected. The body treats it like a wound and tries to close it, and because it's made from skin with pic in hair follicles, it will grow hair internally like crazy and itch to hell and back. This will not in any way, shape, or form improve quality of life, and it is irreversible. At most, surgeons can rearrange it so it closes and heals, but they can't get their balls back, so they will have to manually inject the hormones their testicles produce to avoid severe illness. They will have to pee out of a hole that will need regular cleaning and they will still have to take antibiotics so that it doesn't get infected. Further prosthetic surgery could improve this, but it will never be the same. There is no concept of bottom surgery for other kinds of trans besides male affirming or female affirming, like demisexuals or gender-fluid. Top surgery is fine since secondary sex traits are determined by hormones and do not play critical roles (to the extent of my knowledge) for the body, and it is proficient enough to have little to no side effects or surgical upkeep required, besides preventing infection. Gender affirming care should only be used if they have shown little to no signs of improvement from therapy after a significant period of treatment with multiple approaches. Therapy can and will upset a lot of people or make them more uncomfortable or any number of things because everyone reacts differently to treatment. It doesn't mean it should be discarded, just refined with criteria developed through research.
B. Mentally ill trans. I'm not sure what to do with these people. At the very least, the end goal of treatment should be that the individual either understands the difference between their mind and body or that their mind and body do match. None of these individuals should leave treatment until they understand they are not physically a different gender from reality. This is probably the category of trans that would be scrutinized in monty python skits or movies.
C. The last type. These people, since they don't exhibit the defining qualities of the other two categories, should be able to understand that they don't with either basic education or further therapy if needed. When they understand they aren't truly trans, they will probably stop defining themselves as trans.
4. It will not be possible to determine which category someone falls into without investigation. This process should be voluntary. Those who refuse investigation into their category, however, cannot really be credited as part of the trans community, since to all the world, we can't tell if they are truly trans or not. Trans related crimes may involve involuntary investigation for an individual if their defining category would determine the verdict.
5. transmysnic or transphobic arguments should be discredited if they don't make the categorical distinction either (basically if you're stupid, you're stupid). This will account for most of them, from my experience.
6. In any case, parents, despite their opinions, should have their children try therapy before any other action is taken. Therapists should be thoroughly examined for bias before being approved to provide therapy (in general). They should be examined by unbiased individuals as well. There should be a prior period of therapy with multiple approaches as a criteria of any application for gender affirming care outside of therapeutical experimentation, even if just for chest binders provided by a medical provider. It would be almost impossible for an individual to make up their mind about what they are in a safe manner without perspective from multiple unbiased individuals.
7. As far as public acceptance goes, trans individuals should learn how to forgive deadnaming or misgendering. Humans derive information from physical information, they cannot determine what someone's gender is past physical appearance, so they are often bound to get it wrong if their consciousness gender doesn't match their physical appearance. It's not their fault. It's not my fault that I have adhd, so people who have to deal with the consequences of my executive dysfunction should learn to be more forgiving of me since I'm trying my best, just like people try their best to get gender right. People are indeed people, and empathy and understanding should be practiced by everyone. We should all be trying to get it right, though.
8. Gender roles are different from gender. I suppose I should have been saying sex instead of gender the whole time. You're right, there's no reason to hold onto gender roles. Anybody can be the breadwinner, and anybody can be a stay at home. Anybody can be responsible for shopping and anybody can be responsible for defending a family. Women don't have to have children, there's plenty of other people having them. There doesn't even have to be a man and a woman at the head of a family. Man and man, woman and woman, trans and trans, it's all fine.
9. Everyone is entitled to moral skepticism
I think that's all I've got. I would hope people seeing this won't be mad at me for changing my opinion, I'm entitled to that and that's what I came here to do.
 

0-Star-Candy-0

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At the time of writing that, I was indeed a bastard, I did not know about replying to multiple people in one post.
I dont give a flying ffuck
fair
Not bait, I really just want to know what people think, and I think the only way I can reach the best possible conclusion of my opinion, I should view all the different perspectives.
Ass
 

qwerty

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I'll admit I haven't read every post in this thread so apologies if somebody has already touched on this point.

I think it is easier to argue the more 'pragmatic' facets of this issue, so for example, things like how to appropriately address trans children, where to house trans prisoners, what to do about trans people competing in sports, etc. These are where trans issues impact a sort of every-day society if you will.

However, I am equally (if not more) concerned about the denial of truth aspect of this. Part of me is empathetic. We can argue about the extent that this is mental illness, people following trends, etc., but at the end of the day I have the intuition that these people are adults and can do what they wish with their bodies. Despite this, I'm growing increasingly worried about society's denial of truth, whether it has pragmatic impacts or not. Maybe it is mostly a semantic issue, but saying things like "men can give birth" is disingenuous at best. Feels very much like newspeak to me. I'll also add that I am sick of 'identity' bullshit in general. You don't get to dictate how I (or more largely, society) perceive you.

I could go on and on about the practical issues, the depressing lack of research in this area, the 'transtrenders' and genderspecials, the ironic misogyny some transwomen perpetuate, and so on, but I'm starting to get fatigued with it all. I don't have anything particularly new to contribute anyway; I think a lot of the ideas I hold in these areas are common sentiment.
 
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0-Star-Candy-0

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I'll admit I haven't read every post in this thread so apologies if somebody has already touched on this point.

I think it is easier to argue the more 'pragmatic' facets of this issue, so for example, things like how to appropriately address trans children, where to house trans prisoners, what to do about trans people competing in sports, etc. These are where trans issues impact a sort of every-day society if you will.

However, I am equally (if not more) concerned about the denial of truth aspect of this. Part of me is empathetic. We can argue about the extent that this is mental illness, people following trends, etc., but at the end of the day I have the intuition that these people are adults and can do what they wish with their bodies. Despite this, I'm growing increasingly worried about society's denial of truth, whether it has pragmatic impacts or not. Maybe it is mostly a semantic issue, but saying things like "men can give birth" is disingenuous at best. Feels very much like newspeak to me. I'll also add that I am sick of 'identity' bullshit in general. You don't get to dictate how I (or more largely, society) perceive you.

I could go on and on about the practical issues, the depressing lack of research in this area, the 'transtrenders' and genderspecials, the ironic misogyny some transwomen perpetuate, and so on, but I'm starting to get fatigued with it all. I don't have anything particularly new to contribute anyway; I think a lot of the ideas I hold in these areas are common sentiment.
When you say denial of truth, what exactly do you mean, in simple terms?
 

qwerty

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When you say denial of truth, what exactly do you mean, in simple terms?
Whoops, very silly of me not to elaborate on this in the original post. I see it take multiple forms, but essentially any flavor of saying transwomen are biologically the same as 'cis' women, and the same for transmen being the same as cis men. Men don't give birth and don't have periods. Women don't produce sperm. There's more examples of this, but you get the idea. People will say "men can get pregnant" to try to be inclusive but you could just as easily say "transmen can get pregnant" so I don't understand. Sometimes to avoid this issue I've seen people/publications use terms like 'birthing people' (which rubs me the wrong way).
 
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0-Star-Candy-0

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Whoops, very silly of me not to elaborate on this in the original post. I see it take multiple forms, but essentially any flavor of saying transwomen are biologically the same as 'cis' women, and the same for transmen being the same as cis men. Men don't give birth and don't have periods. Women don't produce sperm. There's more examples of this, but you get the idea. People will say "men can get pregnant" to try to be inclusive but you could just as easily say "transmen can get pregnant" so I don't understand. Sometimes to avoid this issue I've seen people/publications use terms like 'birthing people' (which rubs me the wrong way).
I agree
 

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I stand by my decision as the best possible action for the continued health of the forum.
It's okay that you deleted the thread @Yabba
Because I can delete you
IMG_20230407_092311.jpg

From my copy of Dragon Quest Monsters Joker 2
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Farewell to the abyss of code Yabba
All is forgiven.
 
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dorgon

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Then why threads from other members related with trannies are also deleted? Also why OP deleted said threads of his?
Because each thread talking about trannies always gets derailed and turned into a shitfest. Every time there's a tranny thread it fucking happens.
 
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Yabba

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