a forum admin's letter about agora

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not capitalizing posts. I personally use the caps lock key to capitalize letters because I'm retarded.
TIL you can use the shift key to type in upper case.
 

Chao Tse-Tung

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While I think there's some merit to your overall hypothesis here, you're displaying some very significant blindspots:
  • Boomers were the definition of American rebellion in their youth, and arguably every generation that has come since has aspired to rage against the machine like they did back then
  • All the carebear, sensitivity training, HR newspeak, etc., that is being criticized here is inarguably a product of the millennial generation
  • You're mistaking having low/no standards for manners. Both are performative, but they're not the same thing.
With that said, I think this is a pretty interesting idea and since you've outed yourself as a zoomer I'd be interested in a post where you expand on your views of other living generations.
I appreciate you bringing up these points. I'll try and address them as best I can and then I'll give a short summary of my views on other gens. Potentially of note: I'm a zoomer by the year I was born, but my parents are Gen-X and poor and I have decidedly millenial siblings, so I didn't necessarily get the full-on Gen Z experience, as it were.

  • Boomers were, indeed rebellious in their youth, and I'd argue that as you've said, the younger generations have aspired towards that, which is what's lead to the cycle of social mannerism rebellion. However, more the entirety of the lives of Gen-Z, and for most of the lives of Millenials, Boomers have been almost definitionally the establishment, and perhaps locational but at least where I live, all cared so much about manners that they literally beat it into Gen-X, and still complain when manners aren't used into their old age.
  • This is true, and maybe a bigger point than I consider it (and also potentially locational) but imo the virtue signally idpol-motivated shit is a whole different ball-game than the ways people actually interact on a daily basis with people similar to themselves. I also consider Gen-X somewhat responsible here, though certainly not the majority.
  • This one I admittedly need some clarification on to properly respond to

My shortest possible, most generalized thoughts on generations:

Boomers are right about Millenials, Millenials are right about Boomers. Gen-X is generally cool, but I consider them complicit in the current state of the world. Gen-Z is half people like me, and half the memes but actually worse.
 
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This thread just reminds me how much it would suck to actually go back in time and experience the old web lol. I know we all like to complain about the mainstream web, but there is reasons why it is. As always it's always better to make a remake of the past than directly go back.

I think we can all agree that we all missed the framework of the old web rather than the toxicity.
As my mom always says, "we left behind the past for a reason" tbh what most folks miss are how simple stuff used to be before, how the aesthetics permutate in our brains, remember the 50s and greaser fever people had in the 80s? the 70s nostalgia of the 2000s, the 80s nostalgia and rise of new independent synth musical movements like vaporwave or synthwave (and subgenres) from the early 2010's? And now with the late 90s and post-emo nostalgia we are seeing it again, is just a cycle that never stops, we miss the old web because is old, not because it was actually good, culture in society changes, people changes, is not just about centralization or the big meanie corpo taking our independence, people had a lot to do with it, and most folks, do not seem fond to those times anymore, people had now a distate for tolerance in the internet, yet ironically, we live in the most open and tolerant times in human history.

To be honest, i think i was born in the right time and the right moment, internet is what we do with it, nostalgia is good to have, to never forget were we came and how to learn about our mistakes and progress, but at the end of the day, is still the past, i think we should strive more to make a better internet for now, and for future generations, create new movements that do not depend too much of past ideas, make the present good and make the past seems realistic, because at the end of the day, we are just treating it as an illusion, and that's part of a bigger problem.

Nostalgia is truly one of men biggest weaknesses, just along with lust, violence and our necks.

1672972411600.png
 
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Yabba

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I've learned more about internet history and how the old web was really like on this thread alone than the entirety of the yesterweb discord
 
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Boomers are right about Millenials, Millenials are right about Boomers. Gen-X is generally cool, but I consider them complicit in the current state of the world. Gen-Z is half people like me, and half the memes but actually worse.
As someone who was born in 2002, i think we are oversimplifying our generation, we focus on the bad because we are the present and in our hands is the change, we are young and we are all dumb right now, no matter how much do we think, we are gonna make stupid things sooner or later, but eventually we are gonna reach age, and the cycle will be the same, the next generation will be seeing as something awful, with worse habits than us and ideas more progressivist than we had nowadays, is the natural cycle, tbh we should not demoralize ourselves thinking who is the best, who is the worst, everyone had their chance in the spotlight, changes were made, for good and bad.
 
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SolidStateSurvivor

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You're either misremembering the oldnet or just conflating it with SA/4chan. The vast majority of forums I was on back in the day were moderated so strictly it'd make your eyes water. Off the top of my head, I can remember rules such as "no religious discussion" which went as far as banning you from even putting religious iconography in your signature (in a lego forum no less), countless wordfilters, serious minutiae. Mods regularly and actively keeping topics on track, posts being deleted if they broke the rules, all sorts.

Just cause the moderation wasn't about The Current Thing doesn't mean it didn't exist. I'd argue old web communities apart from the real obvious standouts were moderated more strictly than modern standards.

Ultimately what the old web was about wasn't "no rulezz!!! fuck da police!!!" it was there being enough variety that you could find a community that you liked and could tolerate the rules of and join it. If you wanted fully free speech, there were places catering to that, there were also other places catering to the crowds they wanted to attract.

Do also remember that loads of old web forums had problems with other sites on a regular basis and would sometimes ban people for just giving off a whiff of coming from somewhere they didn't like.
There are power tripping mods/admins from long gone forums I used to use that I still see get shit talked about on other sites to this day. PepSiDawgwitcan
 
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Chao Tse-Tung

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As someone who was born in 2002, i think we are oversimplifying our generation, we focus on the bad because we are the present and in our hands is the change, we are young and we are all dumb right now, no matter how much do we think, we are gonna make stupid things sooner or later, but eventually we are gonna reach age, and the cycle will be the same, the next generation will be seeing as something awful, with worse habits than us and ideas more progressivist than we had nowadays, is the natural cycle, tbh we should not demoralize ourselves thinking who is the best, who is the worst, everyone had their chance in the spotlight, changes were made, for good and bad.
Without a doubt an oversimplification/ generalization, but tbh I've seen all the people around me either fall for the college meme, turn into NEET weirdo volcels, go trans/gay, or they've done what I've done and automatically take the present opportunities for good money and work while working towards an idealized life away from society that we'll probably never get.
This is all of course location dependant, I live in a rural working-to-middle-class area, and I can't give much other than anecdotal evidence from my own experience, but thats been my observations of my peers.
 
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People today actively campaign to get people they disagree with totally unpersoned and bleached from the Internet.
I've heard a theory about this before and I'm curious what people think about it. The gist is that GamerGate was the first time online that people were able to fuck with advertisers and money flow for people, because for the first time corporations had twitter accounts they could be flamed on and sites really depended on ad revenue . I know busybodies have always tried to get shit banned (fundies trying to get Stairway to Heaven banned because of "backcoded" satanic messages comes to mind) but to my knowledge GG fucking with Gawker et al.'s advertising clients was the first time it actually worked on a significant scale, and has served as a strategy ever since. Strangely enough it seems to be mostly employed by people who thought "gamergaters" were racist chud incels. I'm open to having the theory proven wrong but I can't come up with any counterexamples.
 
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PizzaW0lf

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I've heard a theory about this before and I'm curious what people think about it. The gist is that GamerGate was the first time online that people were able to fuck with advertisers and money flow for people, because for the first time corporations had twitter accounts they could be flamed on and sites really depended on ad revenue . I know busybodies have always tried to get shit banned (fundies trying to get Stairway to Heaven banned because of "backcoded" satanic messages comes to mind) but to my knowledge GG fucking with Gawker et al.'s advertising clients was the first time it actually worked on a significant scale, and has served as a strategy ever since. Strangely enough it seems to be mostly employed by people who thought "gamergaters" were racist chud incels. I'm open to having the theory proven wrong but I can't come up with any counterexamples.
It's not just gamergate. The story about the Arab spring has kind of stuck with me ever since I learned it. I bet the elites observed what happened and were immediately threatened by it. And so begins that draconian age of the internet.... :PepeHands: :PepeHands:

Here's a cool video. Even if it's by the History channel (EEEWWW :REEEEE:).

View: https://youtu.be/Fgcd5ZcxDys
 
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morus

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not sure what this is about but just wanna say my favourite dumb rule from 00's forums is no colored text for some reason
sometimes they'd reserve it for moderator edits which were a trash fire of it's own
unfenforcable rules but only because your admin can't code and is 12 are the best
purple text
( USER WAS WARNED FOR THIS POST )
 
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Chao Tse-Tung

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As my mom always says, "we left behind the past for a reason" tbh what most folks miss are how simple stuff used to be before, how the aesthetics permutate in our brains, remember the 50s and greaser fever people had in the 80s? the 70s nostalgia of the 2000s, the 80s nostalgia and rise of new independent synth musical movements like vaporwave or synthwave (and subgenres) from the early 2010's? And now with the late 90s and post-emo nostalgia we are seeing it again, is just a cycle that never stops, we miss the old web because is old, not because it was actually good, culture in society changes, people changes, is not just about centralization or the big meanie corpo taking our independence, people had a lot to do with it, and most folks, do not seem fond to those times anymore, people had now a distate for tolerance in the internet, yet ironically, we live in the most open and tolerant times in human history.

To be honest, i think i was born in the right time and the right moment, internet is what we do with it, nostalgia is good to have, to never forget were we came and how to learn about our mistakes and progress, but at the end of the day, is still the past, i think we should strive more to make a better internet for now, and for future generations, create new movements that do not depend too much of past ideas, make the present good and make the past seems realistic, because at the end of the day, we are just treating it as an illusion, and that's part of a bigger problem.

Nostalgia is truly one of men biggest weaknesses, just along with lust, violence and our necks.

View attachment 48640
Would like to say that I generally agree with the physical gist of this, or in other words, yes nostalgia cycle exists and will continue, but I fundamentally disagree with the concept that nostalgia is a weakness.

Don't get me wrong; could nostalgia be a factor into someone's weakness? Absolutely. But for that matter, so could just about anything, your weakness could be, for instance, chained to being hellbent on self-improvement to the point that it drives you to depression. Not to bring that up out of left field, but just to make my point that you could take any good thing and turn it into a weakness.

Nostalgia serves a purpose, I believe, and it's a greater one than to just make you think things used to be good. Nostalgia is a warped lense, yes, but it doesn't give you an entirely different picture. The good things are just heavily magnified. If you have the ability to also step back and take an objective look to see the bad things nostalgia misses, it's a good way to figure out how to make things better without falling back into the same path, or in other words, combining nostalgia with an objective view of the past can enlighten on how to actually excise the bad and overstate the good as nostalgia does.

This thread, for instance. It hasn't reached a total conclusion of "this is how we make a good internet that we will all enjoy," but it has combined the nostalgia of "I loved  x about the old internet" with the objective look of "I hated  y about the old internet" and from those is beginning to form a synthesis. Will any of us here actually figure out how to remake the old net but better, much less do it? I've got no idea. But that doesn't mean that nostalgia can't be used in a greatly constructive manner.

After all, friend, violence turns forth the wheels of time, lust creates a lineage that outlasts you, and your neck keeps your head firmly on your shoulders :)
 
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Andy Kaufman

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Where can a zoomer like me resd about how the oldweb was like? I've always heard that the old web was a sort of wild west where anything went, so it's surprising to hear that it was also heavily moderated. I want to learn how it really used to be
some old forums are still around. just dig and read some threads/convos
 
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manpaint

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Where can a zoomer like me resd about how the oldweb was like? I've always heard that the old web was a sort of wild west where anything went, so it's surprising to hear that it was also heavily moderated. I want to learn how it really used to be
IIRC the Zeldauniverse forum has archives dating back all the way to 2005, possibly earlier (before the release of Twlight Princess). Another ancient forum I can think of his Gbatemp.

But if you want to see the old web in a pure crystalized form, head over to Runeserver while you will probably not understand wtf is going on, you should be able to perceive the culture of the forum that has been unchanged from like the pre-2010s.
 

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Metropolis

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Hi all, I'm a few days late finding this - but I'm Melon!

I'v read through all of your posts, and can see I was wrong about the general community here; a lot of whats been said here is fair; and although I don't appreciate being called out (does anyone?) it seems to have lead to a good discussion.

Kameraad described Agora as having great people if you "watch the positive stuff and ignore the bad things"; from what I'v read here that holds true; this place calls for keeping your guard up, but a lot of the people commenting seem rock solid. I'd contrast that with MelonLand and say my goal is to allow people to let their guard down; that won't work for everyone and it also puts all the pressure on me to guard it; I'll fully admit I can be overprotective sometimes!

As for the discussion of the oldweb - I totally agree that diversity of spaces was its defining trait; there should be spaces with heavy moderation and others with very little, and you need different communities with different ideals.

For my own sites; Im not bothered by what the oldweb was, or the newweb is; they are fantasy sites - I try to make living memories of a web that never was. The moderation choices on MelonLand are deliberately about creating a storybook version of forum culture - as a few people kindly said here, its creating a vibe.

SolidStateSurvivor - I found your site on neocities yesterday and really enjoyed browsing it! - The functional hover previews are a great touch.
Jessica3cho - Thank you for your donation via MelonTown, and sorry I won't be able to link it to Agora - I can refund if you want, but if you prefer, we can come up with some more abstract representation of this forum to place there as a monument :p - Also I had a listen to your podcast, the subject went a bit over my head, but it was a fun chat to listen to, and the production value seemed really good!

Also a few myth busting points:
  • Sadgrl/Sadness and me are definitely different people (although it's amusing to think we'd be mixed up)
  • MelonLand is not part of the Yesterweb - separate projects with separate goals (although we are closely connected)
  • I'm not a Tumblr refugee - so for anyone theorising about that, you'll have to try again :^]
All said and done, I wanted to apologise for getting this forum and the people on it wrong; on a moderation level I stand by that choice, but on a personal level I have no ill will here and I like what you guys are doing keeping smaller freeform web communities alive.
 

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Hi all, I'm a few days late finding this - but I'm Melon!

I'v read through all of your posts, and can see I was wrong about the general community here; a lot of whats been said here is fair; and although I don't appreciate being called out (does anyone?) it seems to have lead to a good discussion.

Kameraad described Agora as having great people if you "watch the positive stuff and ignore the bad things"; from what I'v read here that holds true; this place calls for keeping your guard up, but a lot of the people commenting seem rock solid. I'd contrast that with MelonLand and say my goal is to allow people to let their guard down; that won't work for everyone and it also puts all the pressure on me to guard it; I'll fully admit I can be overprotective sometimes!

As for the discussion of the oldweb - I totally agree that diversity of spaces was its defining trait; there should be spaces with heavy moderation and others with very little, and you need different communities with different ideals.

For my own sites; Im not bothered by what the oldweb was, or the newweb is; they are fantasy sites - I try to make living memories of a web that never was. The moderation choices on MelonLand are deliberately about creating a storybook version of forum culture - as a few people kindly said here, its creating a vibe.

SolidStateSurvivor - I found your site on neocities yesterday and really enjoyed browsing it! - The functional hover previews are a great touch.
Jessica3cho - Thank you for your donation via MelonTown, and sorry I won't be able to link it to Agora - I can refund if you want, but if you prefer, we can come up with some more abstract representation of this forum to place there as a monument :p - Also I had a listen to your podcast, the subject went a bit over my head, but it was a fun chat to listen to, and the production value seemed really good!

Also a few myth busting points:
  • Sadgrl/Sadness and me are definitely different people (although it's amusing to think we'd be mixed up)
  • MelonLand is not part of the Yesterweb - separate projects with separate goals (although we are closely connected)
  • I'm not a Tumblr refugee - so for anyone theorising about that, you'll have to try again :^]
All said and done, I wanted to apologise for getting this forum and the people on it wrong; on a moderation level I stand by that choice, but on a personal level I have no ill will here and I like what you guys are doing keeping smaller freeform web communities alive.
oh hi there
Yeah, thanks for the clarification, I missed this post while typing out my reply. Welcome to Agora Roads, nice of you to issue a diplomatic response to us and a admission you were wrong about this. I retract my previous message therefore.
 
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IlluminatiPirate

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Hi all, I'm a few days late finding this - but I'm Melon!

I'v read through all of your posts, and can see I was wrong about the general community here; a lot of whats been said here is fair; and although I don't appreciate being called out (does anyone?) it seems to have lead to a good discussion.

Kameraad described Agora as having great people if you "watch the positive stuff and ignore the bad things"; from what I'v read here that holds true; this place calls for keeping your guard up, but a lot of the people commenting seem rock solid. I'd contrast that with MelonLand and say my goal is to allow people to let their guard down; that won't work for everyone and it also puts all the pressure on me to guard it; I'll fully admit I can be overprotective sometimes!

As for the discussion of the oldweb - I totally agree that diversity of spaces was its defining trait; there should be spaces with heavy moderation and others with very little, and you need different communities with different ideals.

For my own sites; Im not bothered by what the oldweb was, or the newweb is; they are fantasy sites - I try to make living memories of a web that never was. The moderation choices on MelonLand are deliberately about creating a storybook version of forum culture - as a few people kindly said here, its creating a vibe.

SolidStateSurvivor - I found your site on neocities yesterday and really enjoyed browsing it! - The functional hover previews are a great touch.
Jessica3cho - Thank you for your donation via MelonTown, and sorry I won't be able to link it to Agora - I can refund if you want, but if you prefer, we can come up with some more abstract representation of this forum to place there as a monument :p - Also I had a listen to your podcast, the subject went a bit over my head, but it was a fun chat to listen to, and the production value seemed really good!

Also a few myth busting points:
  • Sadgrl/Sadness and me are definitely different people (although it's amusing to think we'd be mixed up)
  • MelonLand is not part of the Yesterweb - separate projects with separate goals (although we are closely connected)
  • I'm not a Tumblr refugee - so for anyone theorising about that, you'll have to try again :^]
All said and done, I wanted to apologise for getting this forum and the people on it wrong; on a moderation level I stand by that choice, but on a personal level I have no ill will here and I like what you guys are doing keeping smaller freeform web communities alive.
Hey thanks for reaching out and taking the time to get to know us a little better. I understand that you want a different culture on melonland, I may disagree of blocking links to the agora road but its your community and you can do as you see fit. I hope that you stick around traveler. BTW how did you find out about this thread?
 
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Metropolis

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I may disagree of blocking links to the agora

If it's any consolation, it's not just agora, it's about half the internet :D: - but you know, cultures and people change, maybe someday it'll be different again.

BTW how did you find out about this thread?

I was was checking the referrals on my hit counter and there was a small spike from this forum last week; I figured someone must be talking about me, so I came to inspect!