Agora Road versus basic science: A or B?

SpeedSleek

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I've decided to make a thread where you people put an end to the age old debate displayed in this picture. Yes it's based on Portal but no one cares about the video game board so it's going in general discussion instead.

Scenario: There are two portals, a cube, a platform for the cube, a ramp, and a piston. The piston comes down onto the cube at a high velocity but it has an orange portal at the end of it which will send the cube out through the blue portal that's placed on a ramp. Two things are predicted to happen...
Option A: The cube transfers no velocity and falls out
Option B: The cube transfers velocity and gets launched

We're all autists that are super perceptive so which one is it?
A or B.jpg
 
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Sketch Relics

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I find this a fascinating problem, you would initially assume A, since if you have an object pass through something like a moving door frame, obviously the frames momentum will not transfer to the object, however if instead of just the cube passing though you also think about what would happen if the platform underneath it also moved through the portal with it you would think B. As it would be kinda silly to have an object on a spire jiggle around without being launched or moved. This, however would mean you could basically multiply the force you are capable of exerting using portals, you would essentially be able to ignore mass. So for instance, if you have an incredibly heavy block that you could fit a portal around and placed another object over the portal exit, you would be able to exert a ton of force on the exit object by just moving the portal over the heavy block as fast as you could. So this doesn't make any sense either.

Thus I propose an option C, in order for an object to move through a moving portal, the entrance and exit portal must move in tandem with each other, thus properly balancing out all forces involved.

By extension this means the video game Portal's unmodified in engine way of handling this, just not working, would be the most correct.

Valve wins by doing nothing again
png-clipart-gabe-newell-gaben-smile-memes-gaben.png
 
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№56

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By extension this means the video game Portal's unmodified in engine way of handling this, just not working, would be the most correct.
In-game portals instantly close if the surface they're placed on starts moving in both Portal 1 and 2. Portal 2 supports moving portals via a server command, but the Valve developer community article says "neither the player nor physics objects are ever expected to go through moving portals; thus, moving portal interactions tend to be very buggy and can completely break physics/momentum if you are not careful." The game can't accurately simulate the scenario in the OP image.

Edit: I'm retarded and didn't see the "just not working" part, you're 100% correct.
 
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Noxy

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I was thinking about this last night as I laid in bed.
The cube has no movement vector, and the portal is not exerting any sort of pressure on the cube, it has no reason to move; There is simply no way for the momentum of the portal to translate to the cube.

It's like swinging a hula hoop underwater, you might disturb the water but you are not ejecting the water through the other side of the hula hoop. A portal is like a hula hoop with a wall exerting through it's outer-border towards infinity. Portals are also sort-of non-euclidean* but this particularity (and the in-game footage**) do not suggest any further abnormalities such as unconventional physics.

*In normal Euclidean space, two points can't occupy the same space or be instantly connected without the space between them, but in a portal they can. A better description would be 'a portal is a spatial anomaly whose effects are non-euclidean', but this is a mouthful.

**From what we observe in the games, the movement vector and acceleration of a person going through a portal remains the same no matter how many times she goes through. All the proof we have when it comes to portal physics is that they pretty much obey conventional physics, they are just a doorway.



I find this a fascinating problem, you would initially assume A, since if you have an object pass through something like a moving door frame, obviously the frames momentum will not transfer to the object, however if instead of just the cube passing though you also think about what would happen if the platform underneath it also moved through the portal with it you would think B. As it would be kinda silly to have an object on a spire jiggle around without being launched or moved. This, however would mean you could basically multiply the force you are capable of exerting using portals, you would essentially be able to ignore mass. So for instance, if you have an incredibly heavy block that you could fit a portal around and placed another object over the portal exit, you would be able to exert a ton of force on the exit object by just moving the portal over the heavy block as fast as you could. So this doesn't make any sense either.

Thus I propose an option C, in order for an object to move through a moving portal, the entrance and exit portal must move in tandem with each other, thus properly balancing out all forces involved.

By extension this means the video game Portal's unmodified in engine way of handling this, just not working, would be the most correct.
I think this is probably the most likely answer though, portals just not working is the simplest explanation and it is satisfying.
But I must dispute some of the claims:

if instead of just the cube passing though you also think about what would happen if the platform underneath it also moved through the portal with it you would think B.
I think that would be right, the cube would have a movement vector and an acceleration that will remain constant when the cube goes through the portal. The speed of the portal would not be added to the current momentum of the cube, as the cube would be launched once the two platforms 'clap' onto each-other. Kind of like a car crash.
On the other hand if the platform holding the cube was small enough to go through the portal, the acceleration of the moving portal would be added to the movement of the platform: The platform would be propelled through the other side of the portal with a speed of Portal + Acceleration of platform.

So for instance, if you have an incredibly heavy block that you could fit a portal around and placed another object over the portal exit, you would be able to exert a ton of force on the exit object by just moving the portal over the heavy block as fast as you could.
I think I don't understand this, so I am going to assume the big object is covering the portal door and the heavy object is about to fall onto an accelerating portal.
If this were the case, the heavy object that fits through the portal would hit the heavy block with a force of it's mass + acceleration, but the speed of the portal would not translate into the mix, the heavy block is on the other side of the portal.
The only way for the big block to feel the portal's acceleration + the cube's acceleration would be if the big block had a 'peg' or something going through the portal. If the heavy block's peg was 'halfway through' in this manner, this peg would accelerate at the speed of the portal moving, thus hitting the block at portal speed + heavy block speed.

Of course, this is all nonsense and we are talking about something that does not exist, but it is fun to think about.
 

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I think I don't understand this, so I am going to assume the big object is covering the portal door and the heavy object is about to fall onto an accelerating portal.
If this were the case, the heavy object that fits through the portal would hit the heavy block with a force of it's mass + acceleration, but the speed of the portal would not translate into the mix, the heavy block is on the other side of the portal.
The only way for the big block to feel the portal's acceleration + the cube's acceleration would be if the big block had a 'peg' or something going through the portal. If the heavy block's peg was 'halfway through' in this manner, this peg would accelerate at the speed of the portal moving, thus hitting the block at portal speed + heavy block speed.

Of course, this is all nonsense and we are talking about something that does not exist, but it is fun to think about.
Here, imagine you had a very, very long pole that was being subsumed by a moving portal, if you had the exit portal facing up, you would see the pole move up as the moving entrance portal moved down. Thus, if you were to have an object suspended above the exit portal, you could exert force upon it with the pole as you move the entrance portal further down. However, because the portal is a hole in space time and does not actually exert force as it moves over an object, this means the pole would have it's exit speed set to the movement speed of the entrance portal regardless of it's mass. Thus you could ignore mass and accelerate something as fast as you could move the portal. Thus allowing it to act as a force multiplier. This is why I gave option C, that the entrance/exit portals must move in tandem, that way any object that passes through them maintains all forces without anything lost or gained as a result of their displacement.
 
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Noxy

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Here, imagine you had a very, very long pole that was being subsumed by a moving portal, if you had the exit portal facing up, you would see the pole move up as the moving entrance portal moved down. Thus, if you were to have an object suspended above the exit portal, you could exert force upon it with the pole as you move the entrance portal further down. However, because the portal is a hole in space time and does not actually exert force as it moves over an object, this means the pole would have it's exit speed set to the movement speed of the entrance portal regardless of it's mass. Thus you could ignore mass and accelerate something as fast as you could move the portal. Thus allowing it to act as a force multiplier. This is why I gave option C, that the entrance/exit portals must move in tandem, that way any object that passes through them maintains all forces without anything lost or gained as a result of their displacement.
Now that I think about it, indeed, it would multiply it's force, if you move the portal at 100km/h, the pole would move out at a speed of 100km/h on the other side... I guess the object would still be subject to friction and gravity, but how would that translate to the portal if it is just a door-frame?

You're right, a moving portal would either be subject to some weird physical phenomena preventing it from multiplying force for free, or break some fundamental laws of physics by becoming a near-zero-cost force multiplier. The implications of the later are kind of scary to imagine.

Moving portals collapsing, exploding or otherwise not working is the simplest, and most likely explanation (especially for the sake of my sanity). Thanks for the explanation :agsmile:
 

gon_bek97

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this conundrum violates the laws of physics. it cannot be answered by science. it's solely intuitive.
how it violates the laws of physics exactly is: the cube has two different relative velocities for the same observer: to the observer directly looking at the portal it's perfectly still, but at the same time it's approaching the observer rapidly from the portal. an object can't have two separate relative velocities for the same observer in real-life physics.

my intuition says it's A by the way.
 
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The "intuitive" avenue:
1. Try to only think about one portal at a time. The cube clearly enters the orange portal. And clearly exits the blue portal. Every can agree on that.
Actually the portal engulfs the cube. The cube doesn't enter it because it's not the object that's moving
The answer is A, Dave Kircher, ya nerd pepsimanthumbsup
 
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