Agora Road's Post-Hardcore Thread

Alix Kojima

YHEAAWWW
Joined
Oct 14, 2023
Messages
789
Reaction score
6,391
Awards
244
Virtual Cafe Awards

Z0diacK

NOT A SCHIZO
Joined
Sep 26, 2020
Messages
595
Reaction score
2,323
Awards
194
PART 3: THE GREAT NINETIES

Entering into the 90s, post-hardcore was ripe for an explosion in bands and popularity, thanks to a friendly enviroment caused by punk's decay and the want for more alternative/indie rock caused by Nirvana's, Sonic Youth's and others' popularity. It ended up being the best decade for the genre, almost reaching the mainstream in some cases.
What did the real fans of 'hardcore' think of this shift? Why was there a need for hardcore to turn into 'post' to reach different audiences, why did punk have to be a friendly enviroment? Maybe economically it was the best decade for the producers and the artists, but what about the people who did not enjoy this shift, hearing their music change into something a 'regular' person can listen to? When a close music subculture changes into something anyone can be part of, it loses it essence.

Mind you, I may be reading and getting it very wrong, it just makes me think of a subculture here in Netherlands called Gabber/Hardcore (not to be confused with punk) which also died like that, the music changed and the producers started appealing to the masses, not to the core. This post also inspired me to make a thread about it.

Nevertheless, really nice informative thread! I liked it!
 
Virtual Cafe Awards

FollowFreeman!

space ghost
Gold
Joined
Aug 29, 2023
Messages
69
Reaction score
249
Awards
48
Except for My Chemical Romance, which was the best of that age.
Whipping out my oldfag card one last time. I was lucky enough to see them in '03 at Chain Reaction, I was there to see Every Time I Die. My Chem was the opening act.

I remember thinking they sucked and mostly hung out in the patio when they were on, but by golly I was there!

What did the real fans of 'hardcore' think of this shift? Why was there a need for hardcore to turn into 'post' to reach different audiences, why did punk have to be a friendly enviroment?
I was a teen and going to shows from 99-04 during the death. My friends and I got into hardcore from older brothers showing us Minutemen/Gorilla Biscuits etc. We got into bands like Bane, American Nightmare and Converge. When shit like My Chem started showing up we just laughed, then we all splintered into the wind and went to college or moved on. I think the younger folks just wanted a friendlier space... Mindcontrol puts it best.

you need a healthy balance of truly smart people who can provide art and/or knuckleheads who can provide violence. When midwits fill the scene the scene dies because they don't have the primal nor the truly transcendental things required for a successful culture.
My friends and I had the primal.
 
Virtual Cafe Awards

Alix Kojima

YHEAAWWW
Joined
Oct 14, 2023
Messages
789
Reaction score
6,391
Awards
244
What did the real fans of 'hardcore' think of this shift? Why was there a need for hardcore to turn into 'post' to reach different audiences, why did punk have to be a friendly enviroment? Maybe economically it was the best decade for the producers and the artists, but what about the people who did not enjoy this shift, hearing their music change into something a 'regular' person can listen to? When a close music subculture changes into something anyone can be part of, it loses it essence.
Important correction, post-hardcore was already PHC before the nu-emos came, and it was a change to a more "innovative sound". As for classic hardcore punks, I don't really know. A lot of them also went to the grind scenes.

The whole change to nu-emo was started mainly due to two bands: At The Drive-In, which caught the labels' eyes and led to them sticking emo on everything and Jimmy Eat World (classic emo band) going pop punk and thus becoming much more mainstream.
 
Virtual Cafe Awards

MindControlBoxer

Cyberbully
Joined
Jan 22, 2023
Messages
1,215
Reaction score
5,788
Awards
266

Deerhunter

Traveler
Joined
Nov 24, 2023
Messages
148
Reaction score
399
Awards
54
Great thread. Always wanted to make a thread like this but i feared i wouldn't have the right information i wanted to center around and end up just going on a tedious tangent about things. I really had no idea just how big the math rock scene was over at japan. thats pretty cool

View: https://youtu.be/5nodbonjOCU


View: https://youtu.be/OkW5DRH62jw

:)
 
Virtual Cafe Awards

Punp

3D/2D artist
Moderator
Gold
Silver
Joined
Aug 4, 2022
Messages
2,066
Reaction score
9,024
Awards
313
Website
punp.neocities.org
Great thread. Always wanted to make a thread like this but i feared i wouldn't have the right information i wanted to center around and end up just going on a tedious tangent about things. I really had no idea just how big the math rock scene was over at japan. thats pretty cool

View: https://youtu.be/5nodbonjOCU


View: https://youtu.be/OkW5DRH62jw

:)

I fucking love Math Rock. I hope you enjoy this depressing listen on loop for six hours. There's such a delightful little bridge between verses.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkcO1Bfi1yI
 
Virtual Cafe Awards

Alix Kojima

YHEAAWWW
Joined
Oct 14, 2023
Messages
789
Reaction score
6,391
Awards
244
Virtual Cafe Awards

wavve-creator

Ontologist lost in America; dreaming.
Joined
Aug 12, 2024
Messages
487
Reaction score
1,293
Awards
136
What did the real fans of 'hardcore' think of this shift? Why was there a need for hardcore to turn into 'post' to reach different audiences, why did punk have to be a friendly enviroment? Maybe economically it was the best decade for the producers and the artists, but what about the people who did not enjoy this shift, hearing their music change into something a 'regular' person can listen to? When a close music subculture changes into something anyone can be part of, it loses it essence.

Mind you, I may be reading and getting it very wrong, it just makes me think of a subculture here in Netherlands called Gabber/Hardcore (not to be confused with punk) which also died like that, the music changed and the producers started appealing to the masses, not to the core. This post also inspired me to make a thread about it.

Nevertheless, really nice informative thread! I liked it!
It became more aligned with pop music
 
Virtual Cafe Awards

Holy

Traveler
Joined
Jul 28, 2024
Messages
36
Reaction score
444
Awards
35
Virtual Cafe Awards

guites

Internet Refugee
Joined
Jan 21, 2025
Messages
3
Reaction score
6
Awards
2
Website
guites.dev
I wonder if there's a limit to how much juice can be squeezed from a subgenre before it dies out.

Ofc great artists or just very inspired people can always come along and breathe life back into a genre, but there seems to be a sweet spot where the foundation is layed out but hasn't been fully explored yet: new bands with average musicians can advance it further without requiring geniuses on the line up. Think early days fall out boy on the emo side.

After that is taken, the avg band can no longer produce anything meaningful, and things start dying out. So it's natural that those seeking success start watering the genre down towards the pop side.

(That's my theory at least)
 

Holy

Traveler
Joined
Jul 28, 2024
Messages
36
Reaction score
444
Awards
35
new bands with average musicians can advance it further without requiring geniuses on the line up. Think early days fall out boy on the emo side.
"Real Emo" only consists of the dc Emotional Hardcore scene and the late 90's Screamo scene. What is known by "Midwest Emo" is nothing but Alternative Rock with questionable real emo influence. When people try to argue that bands like My Chemical Romance are not real emo, while saying that Sunny Day Real Estate is, I can't help not to cringe because they are just as fake emo as My Chemical Romance (plus the pretentiousness).
Real emo sounds ENERGETIC, POWERFUL and somewhat HATEFUL. Fake emo is weak, self pity and a failed attempt to direct energy and emotion into music.
Some examples of REAL EMO are Pg 99, Rites of Spring, Cap n Jazz (the only real emo band from the midwest scene) and Loma Prieta.
Some examples of FAKE EMO are American Football, My Chemical Romance and Mineral
EMO BELONGS TO HARDCORE
NOT TO INDIE, POP PUNK, ALT ROCK OR ANY OTHER MAINSTREAM GENRE
 
Virtual Cafe Awards

dug

Proud Owner of the Dimmsdale Dimmadome
Joined
Oct 26, 2024
Messages
226
Reaction score
882
Awards
116
I'm just gonna post stuff and hope it's on brand....
Idrk anything you're saying in here:



I need to go to more live shows....
 
Virtual Cafe Awards

MindControlBoxer

Cyberbully
Joined
Jan 22, 2023
Messages
1,215
Reaction score
5,788
Awards
266
What did the real fans of 'hardcore' think of this shift? Why was there a need for hardcore to turn into 'post' to reach different audiences, why did punk have to be a friendly enviroment?
Because they were in their mid to late 20s now instead of teens in the 80s


Maybe economically it was the best decade for the producers and the artists, but what about the people who did not enjoy this shift, hearing their music change into something a 'regular' person can listen to?
They're dead or in jail or on the streets zoinked out
 
Virtual Cafe Awards

WKYK

LIVE FREE OR DIE
Joined
Feb 28, 2023
Messages
271
Reaction score
962
Awards
98
Website
wkyk.neocities.org
I've been working my way through the music in this thread I'm not familiar with, what an amazing genre, thank you Alix for putting in the time to make this thread. I wanted to ask, how does the ethos of PHC compare to the DIY individualism of the original punk/hardcore movement? Does the increased focus on the musicianship of PHC remove from the imperfect yet raw self expression of punk, or does it seem to hold the same values?

Also so I can contribute, check out Orange 9mm if you haven't already. Toured with Helmet, same kinda feel:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnAWIlIg2aw&list=OLAK5uy_m6HZTlQ6yQNYXLsK5Vp3zSbwG9cEgErAI
 
Virtual Cafe Awards

Alix Kojima

YHEAAWWW
Joined
Oct 14, 2023
Messages
789
Reaction score
6,391
Awards
244
I wanted to ask, how does the ethos of PHC compare to the DIY individualism of the original punk/hardcore movement? Does the increased focus on the musicianship of PHC remove from the imperfect yet raw self expression of punk, or does it seem to hold the same values?
In most cases, the DIY individualism and raw self-expression is the main shared value of both genres. The best example is Fugazi, whose DIY ethics are some of the most well-known of punk as a whole, including not selling merchandise, $5/10 performance prices, never joining big labels, kicking moshers out and later refunding them, etc... So yes, the values were mostly kept around.

Also so I can contribute, check out Orange 9mm if you haven't already. Toured with Helmet, same kinda feel:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnAWIlIg2aw&list=OLAK5uy_m6HZTlQ6yQNYXLsK5Vp3zSbwG9cEgErAI

I've read about them on some websites but never got around to checking them out. Maybe I'll do it today.
 
Virtual Cafe Awards

K0WLOON

Traveler
Joined
Feb 3, 2020
Messages
111
Reaction score
272
Awards
45
Website
kowl00n.neocities.org
"Real Emo" only consists of the dc Emotional Hardcore scene and the late 90's Screamo scene. What is known by "Midwest Emo" is nothing but Alternative Rock with questionable real emo influence. When people try to argue that bands like My Chemical Romance are not real emo, while saying that Sunny Day Real Estate is, I can't help not to cringe because they are just as fake emo as My Chemical Romance (plus the pretentiousness).
Real emo sounds ENERGETIC, POWERFUL and somewhat HATEFUL. Fake emo is weak, self pity and a failed attempt to direct energy and emotion into music.
Some examples of REAL EMO are Pg 99, Rites of Spring, Cap n Jazz (the only real emo band from the midwest scene) and Loma Prieta.
Some examples of FAKE EMO are American Football, My Chemical Romance and Mineral
EMO BELONGS TO HARDCORE
NOT TO INDIE, POP PUNK, ALT ROCK OR ANY OTHER MAINSTREAM GENRE
keep going, I can almost see the back of my own brain
 
Virtual Cafe Awards