Do you care about owning your space on the web?

[Eden]

A facet of this discussion I consider interesting is the amount of hostility self-promotion can garner in some spaces. I think nowadays, with the fight against advertising more prominent than ever, a little nuance is lost. I believe the masses are a little too quick to equate the sharing of an individual's work with something like a corporate Pepsi commercial. This is why the advertising industry can get away with so much, in my opinion, because they possess that kernel of truth: you should share your work; but, naturally ofc, it's taken too far. And what do we wind up with? Individuals with guilt, reinforced by their peers. Meanwhile, the mega-corporations satanic-ritually removed shame from their consciousness eons ago. (Not defending blatant, out-of-context shilling here, btw. Just how quick we perhaps are to generalize.)

I think there's a similar phenomenon with Indie culture as a whole, no? That there is value in something being different, in NOT being mainstream or traditionally popular. And I think there's only a problem with that when it's the singular facet for which one cares about something. After all, aren't you still being pushed around by the greater forces that be in this scenario, just in a contrarian direction?

Besides being "hipster": Why explore personal websites?

Well, *I* do it because they tend to feel a little more authentic to me than traditional social media. Not that you can't find authenticity ON social media, but that there's something to be said for taking away A LOT of the external factors: advertising, engagement, profit, likes / upvoots / retweets / reactions, walking on eggshells' cause of moderation, "monkey-branching"; just, the politics of it all. Like visiting someone, just to see them, and nothing else, because that in-itself, is enough. It's not easy, it's a bit of work- but yeah, man, so is visiting someone. It is deliberateness rather than passivity.

A similar thing can be said for making a site, that the fact that it is a lot of work, that it keeps you out of that unconscious state, is potentially, perhaps a good thing.

 

[stonehead]

Do understand, it was never my intention for my statement to be interpreted that way. Obviously, people make things with the hope that they are seen, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I wanted my statement to be read as (vapid thoughts), (artwork), and (music).
Whereas you read it as (vapid) thoughts, artwork, and music.

Obviously, I know you meant no ill will by this.

Whoops, can you tell what my worst subject was in school? Thanks for the clarification.

A facet of this discussion I consider interesting is the amount of hostility self-promotion can garner in some spaces. I think nowadays, with the fight against advertising more prominent than ever, a little nuance is lost. I believe the masses are a little too quick to equate the sharing of an individual's work with something like a corporate Pepsi commercial. This is why the advertising industry can get away with so much, in my opinion, because they possess that kernel of truth: you should share your work; but, naturally ofc, it's taken too far. And what do we wind up with? Individuals with guilt, reinforced by their peers. Meanwhile, the mega-corporations satanic-ritually removed shame from their consciousness eons ago. (Not defending blatant, out-of-context shilling here, btw. Just how quick we perhaps are to generalize.)

Yeah, the hate for shilling seems like it bleeds into hate for original content itself some times. I get the desire to not want your discussion spaces to turn into a marketing venue, but it goes overboard for sure. "This is a website where we talk about music. What's that, you make music? Ew, get out. All we do is talk about making music."

What I find especially strange is how different the reception is to someone promoting their friends work from someone promoting their own work. "Hey, look at this painting I made" gets, at best mostly ignored, and at worst active scorn. "Hey, look at this painting my brother/friend/husband made" however, gets tons of love. The inevitable result of this is that when someone wants to shill, they just make a second account and pretend to be their own brother/friend/wife.

 

[Collision]

Here are some activities that I think are much easier to do if you self-host:

1. Distribute a recipe with photos placed inline with the text
2. Create an adventure game
3. Distribute a comic or other graphic art with simple interactive elements
4. Distribute a hypertext walkthrough for Baldur's Gate with an interactive map
5. Provide access to a software-defined radio
6. Distribute interactive examples of simple electrical circuits
7. Create a viewer to display a hypercube
8. Document the history of Kai Krause
9. Provide access to a true random number generator
10. Distribute plugin modules for a Sony Playstation emulator and document the development of your plugins

It's true that you probably won't build a following by doing any of these things.

 

[Boxerdog]

How would you even gauge the quality of a view? Someone who silently views something is usually only expressed by an integer increasing. If that's on >reddit or on your website.

Assuming that you have something that you are putting out, like a webcomic or music etc.

You would gauge the quality of a view by those who interact with it, of course you cannot 100% mind read through the screen but usually someone who would seek content outside the main plataforms will usually either make their own things and or/ have an appreciation for your own unique content. If some random person comments on your music on the internet, even assuming its anonymous you are more likely to assume that that person is not into inflation porn for example, of course you cannot 100% mind read through the screen, but those people tend to congregate into places with similar people, the internet while not real life its populated with real life people, and just like with real life people tend to form their own groups and corners.
You would also share your web space with your already acquired friends. Contrary to popular beliefs most websites are spread through word of mouth(or writing on the net), Of course you would need some sort of good content to go with to keep viewership but those who organically searched for it or were recommended by your tree of influence(Which starts with your own IRL group of friends) are more likely to be aligned with the values of your content.
If for whatever reason your thing becomes really popular hopefully you would already have an established a audience behind with with their own distinct culture surrounding it instead of having your product being absorbed by whatever group it became popular into.

If you want to make a undertale website most definitely post on >reddit, because that is where your audience congregates.

The quality of the views its a personal thing that aligns with your content, You post something on >reddit, you have a >reddit audience, you post something on -chan you have a -chan audience, you post something on pornhub you have a pornhub audience, and most importantly the people and culture that come with it.

Sounds like you want just a circle jerk of hipsters that huff their own farts for fun.

Its not about being hipsters, it about cultivating your own audience, Sounds like you want to make a website to be an e-celeb not to share whatever you do, which is fine but that has never ended well.
I assume you wouldn't want your thing being for example your thing being on: Big bang theory as a recurring joke and then becoming a part of the zeitgeist for people that are on that audience.
If you think its better to have 1M people that think your thing its cool because its the cool thing to be rather than 1k that think its cool because they actually enjoy it the end product and identify it as a part of their personal zeitgeist, There are plenty of websites like that already, you are better off doing a Youtube channel or having a instagram meme account.

 

[bnuungus]

that huff their own farts for fun.
That's good because Agora Road is exactly that

actually we're all huffing cognac's farts, no one else's

 

[Andy Kaufman]

Assuming that you have something that you are putting out, like a webcomic or music etc.

You would gauge the quality of a view by those who interact with it, of course you cannot 100% mind read through the screen but usually someone who would seek content outside the main plataforms will usually either make their own things and or/ have an appreciation for your own unique content. If some random person comments on your music on the internet, even assuming its anonymous you are more likely to assume that that person is not into inflation porn for example, of course you cannot 100% mind read through the screen, but those people tend to congregate into places with similar people, the internet while not real life its populated with real life people, and just like with real life people tend to form their own groups and corners.
You would also share your web space with your already acquired friends. Contrary to popular beliefs most websites are spread through word of mouth(or writing on the net), Of course you would need some sort of good content to go with to keep viewership but those who organically searched for it or were recommended by your tree of influence(Which starts with your own IRL group of friends) are more likely to be aligned with the values of your content.
If for whatever reason your thing becomes really popular hopefully you would already have an established a audience behind with with their own distinct culture surrounding it instead of having your product being absorbed by whatever group it became popular into.

If you want to make a undertale website most definitely post on >reddit, because that is where your audience congregates.

The quality of the views its a personal thing that aligns with your content, You post something on >reddit, you have a >reddit audience, you post something on -chan you have a -chan audience, you post something on pornhub you have a pornhub audience, and most importantly the people and culture that come with it.


Its not about being hipsters, it about cultivating your own audience, Sounds like you want to make a website to be an e-celeb not to share whatever you do, which is fine but that has never ended well.
I assume you wouldn't want your thing being for example your thing being on: Big bang theory as a recurring joke and then becoming a part of the zeitgeist for people that are on that audience.
If you think its better to have 1M people that think your thing its cool because its the cool thing to be rather than 1k that think its cool because they actually enjoy it the end product and identify it as a part of their personal zeitgeist, There are plenty of websites like that already, you are better off doing a Youtube channel or having a instagram meme account.

Sorry this just comes off as elitism to me. I browse all kinds of places, including rëddit sometimes. Social media too but so comfy underground message boards with maybe 5 posts a week. Limiting your audience to "people who found my website through organic means" sounds like you're way more caught up in wanting to be special and popular with the right people than just wanting to create something and share it with everyone.

I post here because people will see it and WoTs barely have a place anymore. Imagine everyone here was sitting on their little isolated island hoping someone else reads their drivel and then feel good about it because another hipster found your page. Idk you do you man but I think your view of humans is way too simplistic and you don't seem to notice that people like you and me are everywhere and what websites they browse isn't a core part of their identity like you seem to think.

 

[Boxerdog]

Sorry this just comes off as elitism to me

The internet was built on elitism. Every single septembering is a form of elitism.
1988? 1993? 2000? 2007? Every single one of these changed the demographic of the internet by allowing more and more people that would have not organically reached it before. Is it good or bad? Depends on the perspective, but you cannot complain about the current state of the internet as it its without recognizing that when people got easy(smarthphone) access to it its when things became as they are right now.

Limiting your audience to "people who found my website through organic means" sounds like you're way more caught up in wanting to be special and popular with the right people than just wanting to create something and share it with everyone.

Define right people.

You mean your friend group? Your scene? Or people that would organically look for something they appreciate? If that's so then yes.

I could post content on pornhub and have all kinds of weirdos be part of my thing and have the thing be linked with coomer culture, I am sure there is an overlap from people that would organically enjoy the content that also would use pornhub, but that means nothing compared to the larger audience. Thats how every single thing of notice works, something like dungeons and dragons might be popular now, but nobody was going to a college party in the trying to get people to become part of the playerbase, people that wanted to organically found it, Maybe that really cute girl is actually really interested in role playing and she is everywhere from a sports team to the anime club , but the college party its not the place to put your d&d table out there, those people are simply not the audience you would want at your games.

I saw this exact same discussion happen with a usenet boomer and a zoom zoom a while ago, yes I am shamelessly stealing the boomer college party scenario.

Imagine everyone here was sitting on their little isolated island hoping someone else reads their drivel and then feel good about it because another hipster found your page.

This is literally what the internet was from 1982 to the iphone release.

humans is way too simplistic and you don't seem to notice that people like you and me are everywhere

People are everywhere, yes, people that browse music scene forum #5000 also likely have a instagram account, but those things are not related , their scene its not part of the broader instagram culture, if their music scene #5000 was based solely on instagram, the demographics, style and culture of the music scene #5000 would look pretty different that it is now.

and what websites they browse isn't a core part of their identity like you seem to think.

You don't think that a majority of people have their social media being a core part of their lifestyle?
How many people work 9-5 go home and just watch youtube as their daily activity then repeat?
If you repeatedly spend any amount of meagniful time in an activity that is part of your identity wheather you like it or not.

It just happens that most traffic its between few places, therefore it seems normal to be into instagram or youtube, because they are part of the normal fabric of society post 2010s that you don't even think about it.

You don't need to justify why you post where you post.

 

[Andy Kaufman]

Define right people.

You first. You said you think some viewers are inherently more valuable than others.

This is literally what the internet was from 1982 to the iphone releas

No. Forums, MySpace and Imageboards existed before that.
Also Even if that was the case: How would that even be an argument for this being good or bad for expressing yourself to people?

People are everywhere, yes, people that browse music scene forum #5000 also likely have a instagram account, but those things are not related , their scene its not part of the broader instagram culture, if their music scene #5000 was based solely on instagram, the demographics, style and culture of the music scene #5000 would look pretty different that it is now

But that's where you're wrong. Subcultures form on bigger sites all the time. There's bubbles of interest groups all over YouTube, Facebook, twitter and yes, even Instagram. The medium they use is largely irrelevant for tons of niche hobbies. Just perma online nerds like the average user here think platforms have some inherent spiritual power over the content that's posted there and the users when most don't really give a fuck and just enjoy finding like minded people easily.

You don't think that a majority of people have their social media being a core part of their lifestyle

No. Especially not people that aren't teenagers anymore.

How many people work 9-5 go home and just watch youtube as their daily activity then repeat?
If you repeatedly spend any amount of meagniful time in an activity that is part of your identity wheather you like it or not.

Idk, you got any numbers on that?
Your main character syndrome paired with your misanthropy or wherever your disdain for random starngers comes from needs some reflection imo. People aren't ad shallow as you want them to be. Many people congregating on big sites isn't what you think it means. Many people are passionate about many different things and you might be some pleb/NPC/sheep in their eyes for not being as knowledgeable/involved in their spheres as they are. Web/tech stuff is just one avenue and whatever medium people use to talk/enjoy/express about their niche isn't as relevant as you want it to be.
If some boomers want to talk about model trains in their Facebook group then that's completely valid and they don't need to host their own site to satisfy your elitist ass. If some fashion chicks use Instagram to post/browse about a certain fashion style or subculture then that's also ok and they wouldn't benefit at all from self hosting.

Just because many people consume trash content on big sites a lot, doesn't mean that most people are shallow. I just know too many people to know for certain that the NPC meme is just that. a meme.

 

[№56]

Not really, I think there is a semblance of "authority" if you write something on your website as opposed to a random forum or imageboard.

I have seen too many ideas and concepts blow up out of nowhere as a result of anonymous posts to believe this. The Dead Internet Theory is an obvious example. Whoever wrote that original post didn't have a website and didn't sign their name, but it keeps generating conversation several years later and has attracted more attention than any of the similar (and probably more in-depth) theories about the internet that I've seen self-published on personal websites. Traditional ideas about authorship and intellectual property just don't have the same weight on the internet as they did in the world of the printing press. I'm all for making personal websites and self-hosting, but at the end of the day they're just another way of getting images and text out onto the network. In that sense I think "owning digital real estate" is only useful to the extent that it gives you a place you can retreat to and regroup in case something happens to one of the bigger network nodes.

 

[Andy Kaufman]

you're the site contrarian.

From one conversation where I rationally argue that self hosting is overkill for many, many reasons when you're online? You know nothing. People argue here all the time and aside from a few trolls also in good faith. Maybe you're just not used to this kind of stuff.

you keep saying that a comment on some shitty social media site has a better reach than a well thought post on a website you own?

It does, though. It's objectively true, more people are gonna see it that way.

If you're after the "allmighty reach" then what's stopping you from making an Instagram account and do some roastie shots?

Where did I say I was after anything? Where did I say that "reach" is the goal in itself? I said multiple times, that depending on what your goals are, having the big meeting spots online is simply the most pragmatic and efficient way and I'm arguing against some elitists conception that big sites are incapable of horboring valuable niche interest groups that use the site's reach and ease of access to their advantage and only their advantage. I'm tired of listing all the examples over and over but self hosting just is not the optimal way to do things for many applications. It is for others but not for all.
If nuance = bait then you won't have a good time here.

I see. I'll just ignore your bait from now on.

Wow. Fuck off then.

 

[Andy Kaufman]

 

[スーパー Meidoメイド]

Fuck lobsters​

Lot of lobster sympathizers around here feeling sorry for the lobster. Lobsters are the bane of my existence. Every ounce of my being has been dedicated since the age of 13 to wipe every lobster off the face of the earth. Lobsters are Satan-worshiping beasts that live off of the misery and suffering of all other people. I was there when the lobsters raped my mother, I was there when the lobster hordes killed my entire family, and I was there when the lobster took all of our women for themselves. The lobster have spent a millennia killing the human species and hiding in plain sight underneath the ground and in the oceans plotting their attack and they are close to succeeding and taking over the world with their vile devil-worshiping and relentless slaughter of all humans no matter the age. The only good lobster is a dead lobster, and to all the lobster sympathizers I pity you for your end will come at the very lobster claws you claim to love and sympathize with. You blind fools!

YIKES YOU THOUGHT LMAOOOO
I FUCKING LOVE LOBSTERS

Okay, I pull up, hop out at the after party
You and all your friends, yeah, they love to get naughty
Sippin' on that Henn', I know you love that Bacardi (Sonny Digital)
1942, I take you back in that 'Rari

 

[myrriad]

why would you care about reach, why would ever turn your art (or even worse, yourself) into a product?

how i pity those so shallow they need the views and approval of others to feel good about themselves and what they do

 

[bnuungus]

this is all just silly. it really is just a simple question about what you prefer, no need to get all worked up over it

 

[Collision]

A year from now, if someone was reading this thread and considering rolling their own web space (i.e., HTTP server, DNS records, etc.) what would you say to convince them that they shouldn't? If you had to exclude the discoverability/reach/audience/viewership issue what would you say?

Some things this hypothetical person might want to do:

• Publish photographs of an upcoming family vacation
• Publish articles on a variety of topics in a format where a reader can be notified when a new article is published
• Maintain a short biography and list of current contact information

 

[Eden]

A year from now, if someone was reading this thread and considering rolling their own web space (i.e., HTTP server, DNS records, etc.) what would you say to convince them that they shouldn't?

- I think you'll find a thousand reasons you shouldn't.
- I also think society / the current state of the internet / life in general are also giving you signs that you should not do this.
- If I had to personally bet on whether you should do this or not, I would bet not.

In my humble opinion, however, I think you should tell all of the above to "get fucked".

 

[Boxerdog]

You first. You said you think some viewers are inherently more valuable than others.

I already did.

No.Forums, MySpace and Imageboards existed before that.

You have a forum about your local cooking scene in 2004 how do other people know about it other that you telling them? How do other people reach your forum?

My space wasn't a personal website it was social media

But that's where you're wrong. Subcultures form on bigger sites all the time. There's bubbles of interest groups all over YouTube, Facebook, twitter and yes, even Instagram. The medium they use is largely irrelevant for tons of niche hobbies. Just perma online nerds like the average user here think platforms have some inherent spiritual power over the content that's posted there and the users when most don't really give a fuck and just enjoy finding like minded people easily.

What big subculture(and most importantly the things they are know of) fcame from a facebook group that the average person in real life would have a chance of knowing of? I can name plently that formed from personal websites,.

Also Even if that was the case: How would that even be an argument for this being good or bad for expressing yourself to people?

Being an internet famous e-celeb =/= owning you own space on the web.
You can express yourself on youtube and gain billions of views, but that is not what this thread its about, its about having your own website.

No. Especially not people that aren't teenagers anymore.

U.S. average daily media use 2022 | Statista

During the third quarter of 2022, internet users in the United States spent close to 7 hours daily using the internet, and approximately two hours and 16 minutes using social media platforms.

www.statista.com

So these things that people on average spend 2.6 hours on every day has no effect on their identity?

If you spent 2 hours every day practicing the saxophone I can guarantee you being a good sax player would be part of your identity.

Idk, you got any numbers on that?

Yes

YouTube users by country 2023 | Statista

In 2023, India was the country with the most YouTube users by far, followed by the United States, and Brazil

www.statista.com

Those are in millions.

Your main character syndrome paired with your misanthropy or wherever your disdain for random starngers comes from needs some reflection imo. People aren't ad shallow as you want them to be. Many people congregating on big sites isn't what you think it means.

Maybe you the min maxed main character of the universe its on the big sites but also on the smaller sites but also on that music scene, but also on that opposite music scene, but also on the cocking scene, but also does chrochet, but also its a master saxophone player, but also its on the soccer scene, but also its on the basketball scene, but also...

But for the average person they like what they like and they tend to do what they like as time isn't unlimited, and between work and real life obligations they tent to spend their time focusing on the things that relate to their personal likes and preferences, and those clash with others likes and preferences, that is why they have their own space to do their things.

Lets say you want to play basketball, but people are also playing volleyball, but there are also children playing, but there are also people skateboarding , but there are also people playing tennis, would you rather come here or go to a prober basketball court where the only people there are there to play basketball?

Spoiler

Many people are passionate about many different things and you might be some pleb/NPC/sheep in their eyes for not being as knowledgeable/involved in their spheres as they are.

Yes and that is fine, different scenes different people, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

People are not an amalgam of and pre programed npcs wiht set persnoalities, they're dfferent people with different interests, and that is fine.

Web/tech stuff is just one avenue and whatever medium people use to talk/enjoy/express about their niche isn't as relevant as you want it to be.

The only medium worth a damm its real life interactions where you get real life experiences, everything else its just there to facilitate it.

Again being interenet famous=/= owning your own space in the web

If some boomers want to talk about model trains in their Facebook group then that's completely valid and they don't need to host their own site to satisfy your elitist ass.

They don't, but me hosting my own trains website has nothing to do with them, they're not in my scene, they're on facebooks scene(including their own rules and reguilations) and that's fine. But I guarantee you if they are really into trains and know about the site, they'll probably make an account, people with hobbies tend to congregate where there are people with the same hobbies.

This is the biggest facebook model train group I can find.

Spoiler

This is a forum

Spoiler

Food for thought.

If some fashion chicks use Instagram to post/browse about a certain fashion style or subculture then that's also ok and they wouldn't benefit at all from self hosting.

Being an internet famous e-celeb =/= owning you own space on the web.

Just because many people consume trash content on big sites a lot, doesn't mean that most people are shallow. I just know too many people to know for certain that the NPC meme is just that. a meme.

Yes, but that doesn't mean anything, I don't know why you brought that up, this is about owning your space on the web.

 

[Regal]

There are a lot of reasons not to host your own stuff. Mainly that it is a huge pain in the ass. I work in tech professionally and want to minimize the tech overhead I have outside of my career. I want convenience. I don't want to have to micromanage technology (especially DNS and other services from ancient internet). I don't want to have to code a website when I can drag-and-drop on a Squarespace/Wix template and also host there. I don't want to have to program and troubleshoot smart home products. I don't want to have a local file server. Etc, etc. I would rather spend my time doing non-tech projects.

Now, is there value in people out there who are interested in doing that? Absolutely.

 

[Eden]

Two short blog posts discussing personal websites and the challenges that come with having one:

1. How Much Does it Cost to Have a Website? (some guy I recently came across)
2. Website complexities ~ Written by @niuenso (the creator of this thread btw)

Just mentioning them here as food for thought.

 

[Andy Kaufman]

I already did.

You have a forum about your local cooking scene in 2004 how do other people know about it other that you telling them? How do other people reach your forum?

My space wasn't a personal website it was social media


What big subculture(and most importantly the things they are know of) fcame from a facebook group that the average person in real life would have a chance of knowing of? I can name plently that formed from personal websites,.

Being an internet famous e-celeb =/= owning you own space on the web.
You can express yourself on youtube and gain billions of views, but that is not what this thread its about, its about having your own website.

U.S. average daily media use 2022 | Statista

During the third quarter of 2022, internet users in the United States spent close to 7 hours daily using the internet, and approximately two hours and 16 minutes using social media platforms.

www.statista.com

So these things that people on average spend 2.6 hours on every day has no effect on their identity?

If you spent 2 hours every day practicing the saxophone I can guarantee you being a good sax player would be part of your identity.


Yes

YouTube users by country 2023 | Statista

In 2023, India was the country with the most YouTube users by far, followed by the United States, and Brazil

www.statista.com

Those are in millions.




Maybe you the min maxed main character of the universe its on the big sites but also on the smaller sites but also on that music scene, but also on that opposite music scene, but also on the cocking scene, but also does chrochet, but also its a master saxophone player, but also its on the soccer scene, but also its on the basketball scene, but also...

But for the average person they like what they like and they tend to do what they like as time isn't unlimited, and between work and real life obligations they tent to spend their time focusing on the things that relate to their personal likes and preferences, and those clash with others likes and preferences, that is why they have their own space to do their things.

Lets say you want to play basketball, but people are also playing volleyball, but there are also children playing, but there are also people skateboarding , but there are also people playing tennis, would you rather come here or go to a prober basketball court where the only people there are there to play basketball?

Spoiler

Yes and that is fine, different scenes different people, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

People are not an amalgam of and pre programed npcs wiht set persnoalities, they're dfferent people with different interests, and that is fine.



The only medium worth a damm its real life interactions where you get real life experiences, everything else its just there to facilitate it.

Again being interenet famous=/= owning your own space in the web


They don't, but me hosting my own trains website has nothing to do with them, they're not in my scene, they're on facebooks scene(including their own rules and reguilations) and that's fine. But I guarantee you if they are really into trains and know about the site, they'll probably make an account, people with hobbies tend to congregate where there are people with the same hobbies.

This is the biggest facebook model train group I can find.

Spoiler

View attachment 62293

This is a forum

Spoiler

View attachment 62290

Food for thought.





Being an internet famous e-celeb =/= owning you own space on the web.



Yes, but that doesn't mean anything, I don't know why you brought that up, this is about owning your space on the web.

I don't really get half your points and I don't think you got mine. You rewriting history doesnt help either. I don't know why you keep bringing up e-celebs and fame too when I was just suggesting using someone else's site as a venue for your interests/expression because it saves time, money and effort.
For the 10th time now: Personal websites aren't the optimal solution for everyone and using big sites is ok, there's not some esoteric taint on those platforms.
My point is 100% about pragmatism.