Do you care about owning your space on the web?

Eden

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What would I even put on my personal domain thats interesting to others?
This is a fine thing to think about, but, when one is just getting started with the hobby, I would advise making it about things that interest YOU; irrespective of whether they'd be of interest to others.

Whether you want to lean in later into more "attention-grabbing" topics or not, I would still advise trying to keep a piece of sincerity / authenticity. It's your site, it doesn't have to be for others.

Websites are ever-changing; that attribute makes them more life-like than other forms of art. Lends them to being insightful reflections of ourselves, among other things. That aspect (that it's your reflection) can drive a person to work on it.
 
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Boxerdog

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As a domain owning pangolin I think its pretty nice. Too bad im too busy to put up anything in the domain I pay $9 a year for and also have access to AWS(gross I know, but its the only hoster I know). What would I even put on my personal domain thats interesting to others?

Literally anything.
 
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Andy Kaufman

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To me, the feeling of ownership is pretty nice, but there's no point in making a personal website if you have nothing to share. For a while, I'd just send my friends whatever I was working on, it wasn't until I built something more robust that I actually bought a domain for it. I have no problems spending money on a hobby. It's like people who buy a nice guitar just to play it for themself.

It's a personal website that's used only by myself and some IRL friends and family. If you just want to share some art, or music with your friends though, there's honestly not much incentive to build your own website. There are websites dedicated to sharing that stuff. I hate to say it, but if you care about people seeing your work, a personal website is a horrible way to share it. If you want to make one, do it because it's fun, you can't expect anyone to visit it.
This right here.
I have no need for a personal website. As long as there's places online where I can just register with a throwaway mail adress and post whatever I want I won't need one.
As long as there's a site that lets people make threads, direct messages and embed/upload pics and videos I'm good. An old school bulletin board style forum is basically all I need.
 
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Voicedrew

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I think it's horrendous how everyone relies on social media sites to get their thoughts out into the world. Especially when you consider that making your own site is actually not that hard.
 
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Andy Kaufman

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I think it's horrendous how everyone relies on social media sites to get their thoughts out into the world. Especially when you consider that making your own site is actually not that hard.
How "out into the world" are your thoughts really in the internet if you just post them on your website?
I think sticking to places where most people congregate to make your voice heard makes a lot of sense.
 
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Voicedrew

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How "out into the world" are your thoughts really in the internet if you just post them on your website?
I think sticking to places where most people congregate to make your voice heard makes a lot of sense.
In a broad sense, I agree that it is pragmatic for most people. That is, if your goal is exclusively to have your vapid thoughts, artwork, and music heard by as many people as possible (if the blessed algorithm deems you worthy).

Social networking websites, and the content on them, rely on recommendation algorithms to propagate. This isn't a problem necessarily, but it often results in content that is more shocking, aggravating, and absurd being served over content that the user actually joins the platform to see. It's the complete lack of control the users have in what they see, and the sheer slavery of being played for your attention that really bothers me.

The only "social media" site I really use is YouTube, and I have a browser extension that disables the homepage and the recommended videos sidebar. I have a similar setup on my phone. Again, not for everyone, but it's worth thinking about.
 
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Andy Kaufman

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In a broad sense, I agree that it is pragmatic for most people. That is, if your goal is exclusively to have your vapid thoughts, artwork, and music heard by as many people as possible.

Social networking websites, and the content on them, rely on recommendation algorithms to propagate. This isn't a problem necessarily, but it often results in content that is more shocking, aggravating, and absurd being served over content that the user actually joins the platform to see. It's the complete lack of control the users have in what they see, and the sheer slavery of being played for your attention that really bothers me.

The only "social media" site I really use is YouTube, and I have a browser extension that disables the homepage and the recommended videos sidebar. I have a similar setup on my phone. Again, not for everyone, but it's worth thinking about.
The only ones I have experience with are Facebook, twitter and >redditcostanzayeahrightsmirk and here you still find pockets that essentially are like forums. Facebook has so called groups which can be about any topic and outside of swear words the algorithm doesn't detect anything in there and you can post about anything and it get seen by all group members which ranges from a few dozen to several ten thoudands.
I made some cool halo memes in a halo shit post group that got ~3k likes and got shared several times and I saw them even other sites later. That's "out into the world" for me. My silly posts were probably seen by 10k people if not more. If I had those on my own website, who would've seen them? what person deliberately goes onto some random's website out of context?

For rëddit: Smaller subreddits are still better for visibility and discussion for similar reasons. Basically No one would engage or see your thoughts on your site.

twitter is probably the closest to your assessment but even in my short time on twitter I quickly found smaller bubbles where actual organic discussions took place.

Not really, I think there is a semblance of "authority" if you write something on your website as opposed to a random forum or imageboard. Besides, we're living some strange times where everybody shouts into the void, whether via Twitter, Facebook, Onlyfans or reddit. What makes your shout on >redditcostanzayeahrightsmirk more interesting than cucklover69's? Now, if the said cucklover69 shouted something on his website, cuckloversunite.something, now that could be something to remember, right?
I'm joking, of course, but the time to start a website was 20 years ago? I missed that train but never too late, just like @Voicedrew said, it's not even that hard and you will lean lots of stuff. And who knows, maybe you change somebody's life in the process. Or yours.
Good posts will always find engagement anywhere enough people gather. Aside from that, quality of your thoughts is not even relevant. If you want people to read them, your own website isn't a good medium which is the whole basis of my argument.
I have a top comment under a YT video with literally 15k updoots and an ongoing flamewar in the comments which means that about 200k people read it (since about 5-10% of people who see something also like/dislike it). IDK how I would get my thoughts into more people's faces with my own website.
I'm not saying that there's 0 value in having a hobby website. and yeah you can learn stuff and have 100% control yadda yadda. all cool and good.
But on the sole topic of visibility and engagement it's less than suboptimal. If all I care about is actually talking with and to other people, there's no need for me to make one, no matter the other benefits.
 
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Eden

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How "out into the world" are your thoughts really in the internet if you just post them on your website?
I think sticking to places where most people congregate to make your voice heard makes a lot of sense.
Someone in another one of these personal website threads brought up POSSE (Publish (on your) Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere), but that's like, if you want attention, I have to agree with Mr. Kaufman here: Having a personal website is a rather elaborate way to go about it. There are far less effortful, more convenient routes. Additionally, attention-seeking lends itself to playing things up, hamming things up, insincerity, which I consider a little sad in a personal site.

I've come to look at them more as works of art, though rather nerdy / techie / geeky ones. I just also really love exploring other people's sites. Like, what do they care so much about that they'd go through all this hassle... Spend all this time and effort. What's their world like? What's their message?

Not really, I think there is a semblance of "authority" if you write something on your website as opposed to a random forum or imageboard.
This is also a worthwhile rationale, and one of the reasons I find Web Revival / Personal Website communities that are so restrictive with content a little odd. Isn't the ability to speak your mind in its entirety (for the most part) a pro, not a con?
 
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Collision

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Maybe the most important metric, when it comes to personal expression, isn't how many of your contemporaries positively acknowledge that expression through a convenient web service. There might be good reasons to maintain your own web presence beyond merely publishing your thoughts.
 
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I have my own website:
But it's quite honestly in need of some updating. I've had some ideas about changing a few things around and make some additions.
 

Andy Kaufman

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Maybe the most important metric, when it comes to personal expression, isn't how many of your contemporaries positively acknowledge that expression through a convenient web service. There might be good reasons to maintain your own web presence beyond merely publishing your thoughts.
Publishing thoughts was however exactly what I quoted. So if the site itself is already part of some artsy fartsy expression then my arguments ofc don't apply. The original words were "getting your thoughts out into the world" however which is most commonly understood as thoughts translated into spoken or written words.
I just dislike the one dimensional perspective of "big social media sites always bad in every way" and in the context of this discussion personal websites just aren't a universal solution or an always better alternative.
If you want to reach many people for whatever reason (show them you art, propagate your politics, ask for help, seek like minded people in a large group and many more) a personal website can't beat the big sites and it's not even a matter of convenience since it isn't a matter of effort to reach that many people online with your own site. Can't just amass the same amount of regular visitors as rëddit with just diligence.
 
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Can't just amass the same amount of regular visitors as rëddit with just diligence.

The quality of those views would be 100 fold better than random internet addicts on reddit.

People that actually make stuff or make actual meaningful contributions would much prefer to go to an actual webspace than to go on socialslop.
 
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Publishing thoughts was however exactly what I quoted. So if the site itself is already part of some artsy fartsy expression then my arguments ofc don't apply. The original words were "getting your thoughts out into the world" however which is most commonly understood as thoughts translated into spoken or written words.
I just dislike the one dimensional perspective of "big social media sites always bad in every way" and in the context of this discussion personal websites just aren't a universal solution or an always better alternative.
If you want to reach many people for whatever reason (show them you art, propagate your politics, ask for help, seek like minded people in a large group and many more) a personal website can't beat the big sites and it's not even a matter of convenience since it isn't a matter of effort to reach that many people online with your own site. Can't just amass the same amount of regular visitors as rëddit with just diligence.
I agree with the sentiment here ^, @Collision . I often think about this type of thing, hanging around "creative" types. The idea of someone arguing in favor of doing things for the sake of it without wanting an audience often feels like cope to me. Why would you need anyone to agree with your view, if you just like doing a thing and don't care to show anyone then why even bring it up. You could ignore those goofy people wracking their heads about how they're going to have their voices heard and do your thing. But you speak up instead, because you also want your voice to be heard. And you also want the approval of a like-minded individual.
Thinking also about all forms of "self expression" throughout history, whether it be literature, science, sculpture, music or the arts in general, every great piece or discovery is out there for us to appreciate and benefit from because it was shared. And you could try to argue that maybe there's something even greater that never was shared but then what is the point of that? It would be absolutely meaningless, because we don't know about it so it might as well not exist at all. Saying then, that audience is unimportant to "self expression" is a meaningless statement, I'd argue at that point "self expression" itself is a meaningless term.
Now I'm not saying at all that there's no people out there doing things for the hell of it that need no attention, or situations where it makes perfect sense. But wondering where the line dividing true passion/actions taken purely for the self and masturbation lies, I think it's right there where you feel the need to express to other people the idea that expressing yourself to other people is unimportant.
/rant
 

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In a broad sense, I agree that it is pragmatic for most people. That is, if your goal is exclusively to have your vapid thoughts, artwork, and music heard by as many people as possible (if the blessed algorithm deems you worthy).

Social networking websites, and the content on them, rely on recommendation algorithms to propagate. This isn't a problem necessarily, but it often results in content that is more shocking, aggravating, and absurd being served over content that the user actually joins the platform to see. It's the complete lack of control the users have in what they see, and the sheer slavery of being played for your attention that really bothers me.

The only "social media" site I really use is YouTube, and I have a browser extension that disables the homepage and the recommended videos sidebar. I have a similar setup on my phone. Again, not for everyone, but it's worth thinking about.
I don't think it's totally fair to equate wanting your art to be seen with your art being vapid. I get that it's hyperbole to make a point, but still. It's natural to want to share the things you make with people, especially if you put a lot of thought and effort into it. Maybe vapid, attention seeking content rises to the tops of the algorithms, but that's hardly the only type of thing that gets posted though.

Personally, I don't like the "feed" layout of social media websites. What I love about the internet is the ability to freely browse around, clicking whatever links interest you instead of reading a linear stream of posts laid out in front of you. I end up spending more time reading personal websites and wikis, than I do on social media. Still though, the audience of people like you and I is not very large. There's endless amounts of personal blogs on the internet, and I don't have that much free time. And I only spend a fraction of it browsing the internet. It's the method I prefer, but I can't deny that it's a terrible way to get eyes on your work.



On a completely separate note, I thing journaling is very relevant to the discussion of "purposeless" personal websites. I don't do it myself, but I've read that journaling is a good, healthy way to get ones thoughts in order. Plenty of psychiatrists recommend it, even to those who aren't struggling with any mental issue in particular. Writing your thoughts down forces you to actually think through them, and get them in order.

It isn't weird when someone spends money on a nice journal, or spends some of their free time formatting or decorating it. It shouldn't be weird then to put time and money into building and styling a personal website.

You just need to go in with the right expectations. If you want people to read your writings, write them somewhere that isn't a personal journal. Likewise, if you want people to see your art, post it somewhere besides (or in addition to) your personal blog.
 

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Publishing thoughts was however exactly what I quoted.
Sure, I still don't see why the only thing that matters about publishing your thoughts is how many people actively engage with them in a short time period. Lots of expression, written or otherwise, has gone totally unappreciated within the lifetime of the author. I don't see why anyone should choose to post their thoughts on >redditcostanzayeahrightsmirk just because it might get a wider audience in the immediate future. You're trading almost all control over presentation just for the wider audience.
So if the site itself is already part of some artsy fartsy expression then my arguments ofc don't apply.
A use case for the web doesn't have to be something artsy. When I wrote my post, the example I had in mind was file sharing.
I just dislike the one dimensional perspective of "big social media sites always bad in every way" and in the context of this discussion personal websites just aren't a universal solution or an always better alternative.
Personally, I don't think social media is bad in every way. I don't think it's bad that information, generally, is much more discoverable on the web now then it was 20 years ago. I just think that these services tend to be massively over-wrought and extremely capricious in their policies. For many use cases, not exclusively artistic ones, it's simple to do it yourself.

I agree with the sentiment here ^, @Collision . I often think about this type of thing, hanging around "creative" types. The idea of someone arguing in favor of doing things for the sake of it without wanting an audience often feels like cope to me. Why would you need anyone to agree with your view, if you just like doing a thing and don't care to show anyone then why even bring it up. You could ignore those goofy people wracking their heads about how they're going to have their voices heard and do your thing. But you speak up instead, because you also want your voice to be heard. And you also want the approval of a like-minded individual.
Thinking also about all forms of "self expression" throughout history, whether it be literature, science, sculpture, music or the arts in general, every great piece or discovery is out there for us to appreciate and benefit from because it was shared. And you could try to argue that maybe there's something even greater that never was shared but then what is the point of that? It would be absolutely meaningless, because we don't know about it so it might as well not exist at all. Saying then, that audience is unimportant to "self expression" is a meaningless statement, I'd argue at that point "self expression" itself is a meaningless term.
Now I'm not saying at all that there's no people out there doing things for the hell of it that need no attention, or situations where it makes perfect sense. But wondering where the line dividing true passion/actions taken purely for the self and masturbation lies, I think it's right there where you feel the need to express to other people the idea that expressing yourself to other people is unimportant.
Just to respond briefly, this isn't what I said. I didn't say that, "expressing yourself to other people is unimportant." I said that the amount of positive feedback that one's expression receives might not be the most important measure of how worthwhile it is. Publishing work on your own server instead of to a major service doesn't mean no one will ever see it.
 
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Voicedrew

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I don't think it's totally fair to equate wanting your art to be seen with your art being vapid. I get that it's hyperbole to make a point, but still. It's natural to want to share the things you make with people, especially if you put a lot of thought and effort into it. Maybe vapid, attention seeking content rises to the tops of the algorithms, but that's hardly the only type of thing that gets posted though.

Personally, I don't like the "feed" layout of social media websites. What I love about the internet is the ability to freely browse around, clicking whatever links interest you instead of reading a linear stream of posts laid out in front of you. I end up spending more time reading personal websites and wikis, than I do on social media. Still though, the audience of people like you and I is not very large. There's endless amounts of personal blogs on the internet, and I don't have that much free time. And I only spend a fraction of it browsing the internet. It's the method I prefer, but I can't deny that it's a terrible way to get eyes on your work.



On a completely separate note, I thing journaling is very relevant to the discussion of "purposeless" personal websites. I don't do it myself, but I've read that journaling is a good, healthy way to get ones thoughts in order. Plenty of psychiatrists recommend it, even to those who aren't struggling with any mental issue in particular. Writing your thoughts down forces you to actually think through them, and get them in order.

It isn't weird when someone spends money on a nice journal, or spends some of their free time formatting or decorating it. It shouldn't be weird then to put time and money into building and styling a personal website.

You just need to go in with the right expectations. If you want people to read your writings, write them somewhere that isn't a personal journal. Likewise, if you want people to see your art, post it somewhere besides (or in addition to) your personal blog.
Do understand, it was never my intention for my statement to be interpreted that way. Obviously, people make things with the hope that they are seen, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I wanted my statement to be read as (vapid thoughts), (artwork), and (music).
Whereas you read it as (vapid) thoughts, artwork, and music.

Obviously, I know you meant no ill will by this. :agpepsi:
 
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Andy Kaufman

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I agree with the sentiment here ^, @Collision . I often think about this type of thing, hanging around "creative" types. The idea of someone arguing in favor of doing things for the sake of it without wanting an audience often feels like cope to me. Why would you need anyone to agree with your view, if you just like doing a thing and don't care to show anyone then why even bring it up. You could ignore those goofy people wracking their heads about how they're going to have their voices heard and do your thing. But you speak up instead, because you also want your voice to be heard. And you also want the approval of a like-minded individual.
Thinking also about all forms of "self expression" throughout history, whether it be literature, science, sculpture, music or the arts in general, every great piece or discovery is out there for us to appreciate and benefit from because it was shared. And you could try to argue that maybe there's something even greater that never was shared but then what is the point of that? It would be absolutely meaningless, because we don't know about it so it might as well not exist at all. Saying then, that audience is unimportant to "self expression" is a meaningless statement, I'd argue at that point "self expression" itself is a meaningless term.
Now I'm not saying at all that there's no people out there doing things for the hell of it that need no attention, or situations where it makes perfect sense. But wondering where the line dividing true passion/actions taken purely for the self and masturbation lies, I think it's right there where you feel the need to express to other people the idea that expressing yourself to other people is unimportant.
/rant
Maybe there's artists that are happy creating work that never see the light of day but so far everyone I met, be it a musician or someone who draws, would upload their work for the world to see. Tumblr(back then)/deviant art for drawings and my best friend has like a 12 sub YouTube channel where he uploads piano covers and self composed songs. I think expression necessarily requires someone who percieves it. Maybe not almost but what's the point in uttering words if no one reads them at the end of the day. Not saying gettinf the highest social media numbers on your art of course isn't the main goal but choosing a big site for a chance that your art gets seen by potentially many people is totally reasonable and the better option rhan a website for many reason.
Sure, I still don't see why the only thing that matters about publishing your thoughts is how many people actively engage with them in a short time period. Lots of expression, written or otherwise, has gone totally unappreciated within the lifetime of the author. I don't see why anyone should choose to post their thoughts on >redditcostanzayeahrightsmirk just because it might get a wider audience in the immediate future. You're trading almost all control over presentation just for the wider audience.

A use case for the web doesn't have to be something artsy. When I wrote my post, the example I had in mind was file sharing.

Personally, I don't think social media is bad in every way. I don't think it's bad that information, generally, is much more discoverable on the web now then it was 20 years ago. I just think that these services tend to be massively over-wrought and extremely capricious in their policies. For many use cases, not exclusively artistic ones, it's simple to do it yourself.


Just to respond briefly, this isn't what I said. I didn't say that, "expressing yourself to other people is unimportant." I said that the amount of positive feedback that one's expression receives might not be the most important measure of how worthwhile it is. Publishing work on your own server instead of to a major service doesn't mean no one will ever see it.
The positive feedback wasn't part of my argument. You can make weird, niche art or have fringe political takes but going on a big site means that you get a huge pool of potential interaction to build an audience to begin with. Even if just 1 out of 1000 stays that's better chances than what you'd get by self hosting.
And while censorship is bad on those sites, it's usually guns/violence, porn and certain politics that are banned. If that's the focal point of your online expression self hosting is mandatory of course but I think there's still plenty of room for other topics.

Oh and filesharing wasn't really in my mind when talking about "expression". That's more of a utility thing for me.
 
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The quality of those views would be 100 fold better than random internet addicts on reddit.

People that actually make stuff or make actual meaningful contributions would much prefer to go to an actual webspace than to go on socialslop.
How would you even gauge the quality of a view? Someone who silently views something is usually only expressed by an integer increasing. If that's on >redditcostanzayeahrightsmirk or on your website. Sounds like you want just a circle jerk of hipsters that huff their own farts for fun.
That's good because Agora Road is exactly that.
 
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