Does anyone else notice how a lot of younger guys online talk about "communities", "fandoms", "cultures", etc.?

[Orlando Smooth]

I'm not talking about fandoms in general... I'm talking specifically about the way the cart is put before the horse, and kids talk about "joining a fandom" like it's a cult.

I think there have been a huge number of excellent points made already in this thread, but I want to return to this particular point as I think there's more to explore here. As others have said, fandoms have existed for a very long time now (predating the internet itself, even), and more general interest groups for various hobbies have existed for even longer and typically have the same kind of general structure. What seems to be different now, from my perspective, is that the fandoms of today are ready-made personalities that someone can simply choose a La carte and then dispose of like an old pair of pants that's no longer stylish. It's like a watered down version of a certain type of very Online person who uses self diagnosed mental health issues as a substitute or description of their personality rather than just, you know, having a personality. This is compared to the experiences that I had when I was younger and the experiences conveyed to me by older family members about what it was like to become a part of a fandom (though obviously they'd never use that word) back in the day.

For example, my maternal grandfather got really into woodworking in early middle age and became an accomplished hobbyist furniture maker who would occasionally submit his work to local or state level exhibits. But this was a long process over the course of decades. He had worked with wood at a job early in life and knew he liked it, slowly accumulated the disposable income necessary to purchase the tools and wood, would go to local workshops to discuss ideas with other interested people, subscribed to magazines, and of course practiced the craft. The point is that in order to achieve whatever was necessary to say "I'm a woodworker" was hard-earned knowledge and experience. Now, someone can easily get enough of the lingo, merch, and opinions common to the interest group to be a convincing facsimile of an actual enthusiast regardless of if they've ever held a saw. Note that criticism of this practice is distinctly different from gatekeeping n00bs of a given pursuit, because the basic assumption there is that while the new members are inexperienced and lacking in practical knowledge, they are at least genuine participants in hobby and enjoy it for the sake of it. Compare this to the practice of caring to be a part of a given community more than caring about the activity around which the community is formed.

The point I'm trying to get at is that freely accessible, high quality information about hobbies or fandoms can be good for genuine participants as it allows people to advance their skills faster, form more interesting opinions, or construct more insightful criticisms. But it also creates opportunities for "interest group voyeurs" if you will. These voyeurs may be harmless at first, but if there is enough of them they can create artificial feedback loops wherein they echo and amplify each others opinions even if those opinions are not held by genuine participants of the interest group. Like how dead internet theory can end up causing actual humans to act like bots, because the actual humans are exposed to so many bots that they think that's how normal people interact; an excessive number of voyeurs ends up distorting the real community and dry rotting it from within. This is precisely why I drifted so far away from the retro video game community in the early 2010's, as I felt that it became less about playing old games and more about espousing the fact that you were a fan of old games and had super esoteric opinions on decades old games that weren't even popular in their time. I still play my N64 and enjoy it, but I feel no need to participate in online conversations about it because they serve only to dilute my own enjoyment.

What is truly sad about all of this is that it indicates that there is a significant number of people who either can't or don't want to foster genuine personal pursuits and instead opt for attaining in-group status through vanity purchases and parroting observed opinions, rather than acquisitions of necessity (or preference) and opinions derived of experience. It's one of the things that, in my opinion, contributes to the slow but accelerating decay of culture and why so many people feel that modern life is soul crushing. Because the final frustration in all of this is that if you find yourself with a genuine interest in a topic, it is now that much harder to find a group of people who themselves share that genuine interest, often leading to increased feelings of loneliness and isolation.

 

[LiraTirsoCaduceo]

I think there have been a huge number of excellent points made already in this thread, but I want to return to this particular point as I think there's more to explore here. As others have said, fandoms have existed for a very long time now (predating the internet itself, even), and more general interest groups for various hobbies have existed for even longer and typically have the same kind of general structure. What seems to be different now, from my perspective, is that the fandoms of today are ready-made personalities that someone can simply choose a La carte and then dispose of like an old pair of pants that's no longer stylish. It's like a watered down version of a certain type of very Online person who uses self diagnosed mental health issues as a substitute or description of their personality rather than just, you know, having a personality. This is compared to the experiences that I had when I was younger and the experiences conveyed to me by older family members about what it was like to become a part of a fandom (though obviously they'd never use that word) back in the day.

For example, my maternal grandfather got really into woodworking in early middle age and became an accomplished hobbyist furniture maker who would occasionally submit his work to local or state level exhibits. But this was a long process over the course of decades. He had worked with wood at a job early in life and knew he liked it, slowly accumulated the disposable income necessary to purchase the tools and wood, would go to local workshops to discuss ideas with other interested people, subscribed to magazines, and of course practiced the craft. The point is that in order to achieve whatever was necessary to say "I'm a woodworker" was hard-earned knowledge and experience. Now, someone can easily get enough of the lingo, merch, and opinions common to the interest group to be a convincing facsimile of an actual enthusiast regardless of if they've ever held a saw. Note that criticism of this practice is distinctly different from gatekeeping n00bs of a given pursuit, because the basic assumption there is that while the new members are inexperienced and lacking in practical knowledge, they are at least genuine participants in hobby and enjoy it for the sake of it. Compare this to the practice of caring to be a part of a given community more than caring about the activity around which the community is formed.

The point I'm trying to get at is that freely accessible, high quality information about hobbies or fandoms can be good for genuine participants as it allows people to advance their skills faster, form more interesting opinions, or construct more insightful criticisms. But it also creates opportunities for "interest group voyeurs" if you will. These voyeurs may be harmless at first, but if there is enough of them they can create artificial feedback loops wherein they echo and amplify each others opinions even if those opinions are not held by genuine participants of the interest group. Like how dead internet theory can end up causing actual humans to act like bots, because the actual humans are exposed to so many bots that they think that's how normal people interact; an excessive number of voyeurs ends up distorting the real community and dry rotting it from within. This is precisely why I drifted so far away from the retro video game community in the early 2010's, as I felt that it became less about playing old games and more about espousing the fact that you were a fan of old games and had super esoteric opinions on decades old games that weren't even popular in their time. I still play my N64 and enjoy it, but I feel no need to participate in online conversations about it because they serve only to dilute my own enjoyment.

What is truly sad about all of this is that it indicates that there is a significant number of people who either can't or don't want to foster genuine personal pursuits and instead opt for attaining in-group status through vanity purchases and parroting observed opinions, rather than acquisitions of necessity (or preference) and opinions derived of experience. It's one of the things that, in my opinion, contributes to the slow but accelerating decay of culture and why so many people feel that modern life is soul crushing. Because the final frustration in all of this is that if you find yourself with a genuine interest in a topic, it is now that much harder to find a group of people who themselves share that genuine interest, often leading to increased feelings of loneliness and isolation.

Yes, while I feel like fandoms and hobbies are different I do agree with you that they are suffering from similar issues.
Particularly what you said about people back then needing to earn their titles compared to now where you can write two lines in Twitter and call yourself a poet.
The anti-gatekeeping attitude of "let people identify with whatever they want" merely turned these activities into things where you conveniently buy a few material tools and suddenly you are a woodworker, chessplayer, a cinephile, a beercrafter or whatever. Then all you do is tell the whole world about your hobby and you are now that. It's very performative.

I'm not talking about fandoms in general... I'm talking specifically about the way the cart is put before the horse, and kids talk about "joining a fandom" like it's a cult.

That being said, I think old subcultures where kind of performative and cultish as well.
To be a metalhead you had to dress like a metalhead, listen to metal, hang out at the metalhead pub or cd store, etc. And you HAD to have bad blood with other subcultures, never be caught listening to punk, let alone pop. In fact I remember these guys could get violent too. I still remember the times when emos and floggers(local subculture I think) would fight each other physically over their subculture. So I think the cult like behaviour you are describing is actually what's left of old subcultures.
As to why these things happen? I think it arises from a lack of sense of belonging and a need to define oneself on more solid terms.

 

[Orlando Smooth]

That being said, I think old subcultures where kind of performative and cultish as well.
To be a metalhead you had to dress like a metalhead, listen to metal, hang out at the metalhead pub or cd store, etc

That's an entirely valid point to make, but I would pushback some. When it comes to those kind of edgy groups of people in those eras, they were not nearly as widely accepted in mainstream society as they are now. Or rather, any kind of countercultural movement intrinsically implies that there is some culture that is being countered. Being a metalhead 40 years ago meant you were very directly going against the grain of society and dressing that way meant you were taking a stance and drawing your lines in the sand knowing that there would be pushback. Nowadays, you can tell everyone at your corporate job that you like metal and no one will give a shit. It's also difficult to view it as counterculture in the same way anymore because the idea of a monoculture is dead, so you're not really taking a meaningful anti-normalcy stance. At most these subcultures are now just "alternative" to whatever the normies are doing, but since there is no singular form of culture to be opposed to it is difficult to classify anything as counterculture. That said, the petty attitudes and stupid physical fighting were always just that: petty and stupid.

As to why these things happen? I think it arises from a lack of sense of belonging and a need to define oneself on more solid terms.

This I would agree with entirely, but also ascribe it to a lack of confidence. Someone who is confident in themself will pursue their own interests for the sake of enjoying the thing, making friends and participating in communities along the way as a natural consequence. Perhaps that's the real takeaway here: pursuing an interest simply for the sake of your own enjoyment, and without getting dragged into the pseudo-appreciative masses of the pursuit, both leads to and is an effect of personal maturity and confidence.

 

[Zaku]

I think the point of distinguishment to make between fandom of old and fandom of new is that fandom once upon a time per definition required interaction with the subject material but by now, the subject material is just an optionality, an aesthetics giver of sorts. In a fandom, you no longer have to engage with what you're a fan of. Because that would require effort and effort in our modern times is evil as it's gatekeeping and not inclusive and that's what modern fandom is all about: it's a cult, a religion, something like a gathering under the banner of a piece of media, a group around the subject material but not about it.

This is what's primarily interesting to look at and a mostly new phenomenon because that means that, to name a promiment example, in Persona 5 fandom, Persona 5 is just an abstract figure in the room. Fandom is no longer about the thing itself but about you slapping that thing on yourself as an extension of yourself. It's an identity designator - little more than fashion. You are Persona 5 the way you are LGBT or cis or the way you add pronouns to your twitter bio. This is why people take critique of what they base their fandom around as existential and they freak out a lot more often, not rarely about things they haven't even played or watched - they perceive it is an insult to themselves when you say that XY Series/Game isn't as good as they think it is. Their parasocial family member thing, their extension of their very being is under attack when you say their media is not entirely perfect. They have less interest in what they are supposed to be fanatic about than ever before yet paradoxically also more stake in it than ever before. It might seem contradictionary until you start to understand that the mindset of fans now is not one of interest but one of brand adherance. Consequently, the more intangible the object they flock around is the easier this kind of cultism is established. "I've watched parts of a Let's Play on YouTube" makes you qualified to be part of the fandom of a game but "I am an avid collector of model trains; I have no model train" would get you laughed at. It's the genuinity of interest and fascination with something having made way for tribalism.

I believe the degradation of what fandom means has been successfully going on for quite some time and the early stages could be seen even in the aughts, albeit only in select fringe cases and from individuals who would usually rightfully get laughed at. We all can easily think of a fat Sora x Riku yaoi shipper Kingdom Hearts fangirl who had never played any of these games - we had that back then and it would draw ridicule for good reason. This is now a mainstream approach however. We can refer to something like Persona 5 here again. You look at twitter polls that say you don't have to play Persona 5 to be a Persona 5 fan and noone will bat an eye yet I am sure that you will easily get kicked out of a Persona 5 fandom if you don't align with a certain set of third party-assigned values that might not even have to do anything with Persona 5, f. i. pseudo-progressive stances. This approach is a breeding ground for politics too, obviously so since fandom is no longer "people into that thing over there" but "people like us". Personally, as with every conformist twat behavior gone too far, I mainly blame tumblr Millennials for this.

Because that is the modern idea of fandom as a fashion that is an extension of yourself and your identity group - it comes with an unspoken ruleset of values and norms to adhere to that were not even necessarily part of what the original creators had set out to do and they have no say in either. After all, what do they know?

 

[Michaelsoft_Binbows]

To be honest it just sounds like urban tribes(I forgot what you call them in English, like punks, metalheads, emo, etc).

Cliques

 

[Some_porcupine]

Adding here that reading the TVTropes pages of the posters themselves is pure autistic fantasmagoria. It was sad when they removed their 'Troper Moments.'

Behold:

This Troper gave a very nasty one that was merged with a Hannibal Lecture to a bully Jerk Jock type. It can be summed up as, "I really do pity you. . .or at least I try to. . . . You are just an empty fool who tries to erase his fear that he might not get a football scholarship by bullying those lesser than him. I continue these "geeky" behaviors because they let me form at least a core of my personality. You. . .you have nothing any more other than to try to fill your empty core up with the fear of others while watching that perfect six pack decay from one too many beers." He cried and ran away, having been emotionally dissected.

It's shit that never happened, but this obsession with media and stylistic conventions forces certain strains of autistic personalities to codify their lives in Always Capitalised Terms. I suspect there is an overlap with what Cycle has mentioned regarding people bringing their preconceived familiar structures to media that has little or nothing to do with it, and then forcing it upon the medium anyway, and by extension codifying their own experiences (or their wishful thinking of what experiences they should have) in a similar fashion.

This Agora poster will personally shove any Shrinking Violet TVTropes forum member in a Bully Locker.

tumblr-type "millennial writing"

 

[灰の男性]

Related:

Fandoms and "Nerd Culture"

This thread briefly touched on some of the issues nerd culture, which triggered a lot of thoughts in my brain. I never really understood fandoms, despite seeming to fit into the prime demographic for them. Most of my hobbies would be described as incredibly nerdy by the average person, and...

forum.agoraroad.com

The Rise and Fall of Geek Culture

I recently had some mindless work to do, so I listened to this video someone had sent me regarding the rise and fall of geek culture. If you're not familiar with the creator, she's a Canadian progressive who makes these long videos about cultural topics - a style that the YT algorithm currently...

forum.agoraroad.com

 

[Some_porcupine]

I'd add the [rise of] Profilicity [and the future of society] /thread there, too

---

I think you should take into account that the terms "subcultures", "scenes" and "fandoms" aren't synonymous with one another. Someone in a niche tiny little fandom of a point-and-click game in the 90's was as much of a funky little weirdo as they are now, it's just that their fanclubs are more easily accessible and can sometimes be lurked by randoms. [...] What has changed is how visible these groups are.

did you read it or did you came to same conclusions, or are even the same person?

(yes, i back-edited my post to not waste space and-or to add link)

 

[IldaDM]

I think you should take into account that the terms "subcultures", "scenes" and "fandoms" aren't synonymous with one another. Someone in a niche tiny little fandom of a point-and-click game in the 90's was as much of a funky little weirdo as they are now, it's just that their fanclubs are more easily accessible and can sometimes be lurked by randoms. This cannot be compared with a subculture, which I perceive as more of an umbrella term which houses fandoms, and scenes are even broader. What comes to mind is the term "heroin-scene" which I read in the anarchist cookbook. This scene would encompass like one third of Indonesia, which is the farthest from obscurity and social isolation you can get.
We live in an age where everything is overly-documented and put on display, and there are no more posers or true fans then there were 30 years ago.
Punks/emo's/skaters still exist and they are still just as social as they where before, it's just that they also post on social media, just like the posers who see it and want to imitate the aesthetic in a performative context.
I understand where your concern comes from, but it is irrational luckily.
tl:dr Posers just have an easier time leeching and showing off, and those who are terminally online now would still be reclusive nerds way back when, that hasn't changed a bit. What has changed is how visible these groups are.

 

[anonyalbu]

I have 2 theories on it
1. It might be the result of the centralisation of the Internet to only a few website and people trying to mold their content to that website's format, social media is about the self so nerd content transformed from "I like this thing" to "as a member of x". Only existing on a few generalized websites means is much easy for people to dictate a sense of identity since people try to exist on every platform at once so the "social values" and "identity" carry over from one place to the next.
2. It's the results of the feminization of die-hard male or at least gender neutral nerd spaces, with the demonisation of any form of masculinity, toxic feminity took over those spaces. I only have word of mouth secondary sources on this so take it with a grain of salt since people can misremember or cherry pick information to make an argument so don't shoot the messenger. From what I heard is that feminine online spaces used to be very isolated gatekeepy with a harsh code of conduct back in the livejornal days, apparently such thing was necessary since not being that might attract guys who can stalk and harass them and overtime the harsh code of conduct combined with the isolated environment formed into some sorta proto fan identity. You weren't only a fan of something you were a fan of something whose also good and moral and stands for what they believe in and since any digression meant exile to an environment that was unfriendly to the feminine, people comply without question. Overtime as fans came and go the fear of exile combined with the unfriendly outside environment meant that a sense of fan identity with rules stayed and was transferred from one platform to other eventually gobbling up nerd places that didn't had such culture.