(((Greek))) Comicdom bans Greek illustrator for being historically accurate

InsufferableCynic

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You're confusing the average American with a pre-programmed bot, I mean cmon now no way this free flow of information they boast of in a nation PROUDLY backed by the Bill of Rights is so thoroughly compromised in terms of information literacy.....right??? My primary school textbooks told me to trust the news. TV anchorman told me I need to buy all of BlacRock's [brand X] because BlackRock's [brand Y] are fascists! lul
The virgin "Americans are brainwashed by the evil corporations" vs the CHAD "Americans are just too stupid to think"

Seriously though, I tend to dismiss the idea that humans (or that a certain group of humans) are inherently stupid. Usually when given a complex tasks that actually means something to them, most humans are able to perform. It's very rare to see someone who's just too plain stupid to, say, operate an ATM or a Checkout, or to fill out the right forms needed to pay their taxes. When people are actively excited about something, they can mull over details for hours and make good decisions. I have seen people ditch iPhone for Android after actually sitting down and thinking about it and using reason to determine that the extra cost and lack of features wasn't worth it for the emotional satisfaction of owning a "premium" device. I have seen people who were "too stupid" to understand Algebra suddenly able to figure out those stupid Facebook "3 bananas = 6 apples" puzzles because they bothered to take the time to understand them.

I would say, the major contributor to human intellectual failing is laziness. People just don't care. They go with the flow because it's easier than thinking, and that generally results in extremely poor decision making. Worse, humans are hardwired to prioritise earlier decisions over later ones and so one lazy decision made early on can jeopardise an entire thought process later on, to the point where it can be very hard to actually reason out of a position because it's so ingrained.

I feel like Americans are particularly vulnerable to this because of the disposability of American culture. Everything is being constantly sold as being "a modern status symbol" first and foremost, which obviously is an unsustainable position, because in order to actually sell products, you naturally have to obsolete the old one to make way for the next "modern status symbol". People notice this in technology but it's a staple of American culture in general. In response to this, I feel the average American hasn't really learned to value products properly, and Americans generally have so much unfettered access to wealth that sub-par decision making hasn't been a major issue for them. When you have even a moderate amount of money, really awful, overpriced products aren't as painful as when you're much poorer. If you can only buy 1 phone to last 4 years, for instance, you're going to make sure it's a rock-solid, reliable, sturdy one, not a status symbol that will be obsolete within 1 year. This sort of forced decision making trains the mind and, in my opinion, makes for better decision making.

American consumerist culture and laziness are the reason why Americans are some of the dumbest people on the planet. I tend to find that Americans that buck the trend and think for themselves usually tend to be about as intelligent as most other people around the world. More interestingly, the Americans I do know who are reasonably intelligent usually weren't held back much by "America's crappy education system" and instead made it work for them, because more often than not, access to information is there, but is underutilised.

I don't actually think the American education system is as bas as everyone says it is. People are justifiably upset because it grades work terribly and disincentivises actual learning, but the access to resources and teaching for genuinely interested students seems to be generally fine, at least to the standard of most other developed nations, so I don't buy the more liberal "Americans are actually really smart but their education system is letting them down because of government cost-cutting and corporate greed, that's why they fail" argument either.
 
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Andy Kaufman

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What I wonder about is... how can you make a niche forum without the off-topic section overtaking it all?

I mean this "politics" stuff overtook everything because it's an emotionally charged topic and you don't need to put in any effort interacting with it. Like I can put out my 3 prebaked lines like an npc have my 2-3 cups and call it a day.
post in my RP thread, it's the only way to save agora road!!!
 
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bnuungus

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post in my RP thread, it's the only way to save agora road!!!
I would argue the real way to preserve agora is to make more threads. I've been noticing that people are sticking to profile posts more and more when initiating a small discussion whereas you could instead make a nice little thread about it. Not every thread needs to be an effortpost. We need more low quality comfy threads (while still having effortposts)
 
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Vetusomaru

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The virgin "Americans are brainwashed by the evil corporations" vs the CHAD "Americans are just too stupid to think"

Seriously though, I tend to dismiss the idea that humans (or that a certain group of humans) are inherently stupid. Usually when given a complex tasks that actually means something to them, most humans are able to perform. It's very rare to see someone who's just too plain stupid to, say, operate an ATM or a Checkout, or to fill out the right forms needed to pay their taxes. When people are actively excited about something, they can mull over details for hours and make good decisions. I have seen people ditch iPhone for Android after actually sitting down and thinking about it and using reason to determine that the extra cost and lack of features wasn't worth it for the emotional satisfaction of owning a "premium" device. I have seen people who were "too stupid" to understand Algebra suddenly able to figure out those stupid Facebook "3 bananas = 6 apples" puzzles because they bothered to take the time to understand them.

I would say, the major contributor to human intellectual failing is laziness. People just don't care. They go with the flow because it's easier than thinking, and that generally results in extremely poor decision making. Worse, humans are hardwired to prioritise earlier decisions over later ones and so one lazy decision made early on can jeopardise an entire thought process later on, to the point where it can be very hard to actually reason out of a position because it's so ingrained.

I feel like Americans are particularly vulnerable to this because of the disposability of American culture. Everything is being constantly sold as being "a modern status symbol" first and foremost, which obviously is an unsustainable position, because in order to actually sell products, you naturally have to obsolete the old one to make way for the next "modern status symbol". People notice this in technology but it's a staple of American culture in general. In response to this, I feel the average American hasn't really learned to value products properly, and Americans generally have so much unfettered access to wealth that sub-par decision making hasn't been a major issue for them. When you have even a moderate amount of money, really awful, overpriced products aren't as painful as when you're much poorer. If you can only buy 1 phone to last 4 years, for instance, you're going to make sure it's a rock-solid, reliable, sturdy one, not a status symbol that will be obsolete within 1 year. This sort of forced decision making trains the mind and, in my opinion, makes for better decision making.

American consumerist culture and laziness are the reason why Americans are some of the dumbest people on the planet. I tend to find that Americans that buck the trend and think for themselves usually tend to be about as intelligent as most other people around the world. More interestingly, the Americans I do know who are reasonably intelligent usually weren't held back much by "America's crappy education system" and instead made it work for them, because more often than not, access to information is there, but is underutilised.

I don't actually think the American education system is as bas as everyone says it is. People are justifiably upset because it grades work terribly and disincentivises actual learning, but the access to resources and teaching for genuinely interested students seems to be generally fine, at least to the standard of most other developed nations, so I don't buy the more liberal "Americans are actually really smart but their education system is letting them down because of government cost-cutting and corporate greed, that's why they fail" argument either.
Is that you?

This is a typical politics/schitzo Agora thread. Please stop posting.
Lack of self-awareness much? Or typical case of "I'll blame people I hate for shit I'm guilty for"?
 

Andy Kaufman

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I would argue the real way to preserve agora is to make more threads. I've been noticing that people are sticking to profile posts more and more when initiating a small discussion whereas you could instead make a nice little thread about it. Not every thread needs to be an effortpost. We need more low quality comfy threads (while still having effortposts)
I think everyone should just post in my RP thread though
 
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SolidStateSurvivor

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The virgin "Americans are brainwashed by the evil corporations" vs the CHAD "Americans are just too stu

Seriously though, I tend to dismiss the idea that humans (or that a certain group of humans) are inherently stupid. Usually when given a complex tasks that actually means something to them, most humans are able to perform. It's very rare to see someone who's just too plain stupid to, say, operate an ATM or a Checkout, or to fill out the right forms needed to pay their taxes. When people are actively excited about something, they can mull over details for hours and make good decisions. I have seen people ditch iPhone for Android after actually sitting down and thinking about it and using reason to determine that the extra cost and lack of features wasn't worth it for the emotional satisfaction of owning a "premium" device. I have seen people who were "too stupid" to understand Algebra suddenly able to figure out those stupid Facebook "3 bananas = 6 apples" puzzles because they bothered to take the time to understand them.

I would say, the major contributor to human intellectual failing is laziness. People just don't care. They go with the flow because it's easier than thinking, and that generally results in extremely poor decision making. Worse, humans are hardwired to prioritise earlier decisions over later ones and so one lazy decision made early on can jeopardise an entire thought process later on, to the point where it can be very hard to actually reason out of a position because it's so ingrained.

I feel like Americans are particularly vulnerable to this because of the disposability of American culture. Everything is being constantly sold as being "a modern status symbol" first and foremost, which obviously is an unsustainable position, because in order to actually sell products, you naturally have to obsolete the old one to make way for the next "modern status symbol". People notice this in technology but it's a staple of American culture in general. In response to this, I feel the average American hasn't really learned to value products properly, and Americans generally have so much unfettered access to wealth that sub-par decision making hasn't been a major issue for them. When you have even a moderate amount of money, really awful, overpriced products aren't as painful as when you're much poorer. If you can only buy 1 phone to last 4 years, for instance, you're going to make sure it's a rock-solid, reliable, sturdy one, not a status symbol that will be obsolete within 1 year. This sort of forced decision making trains the mind and, in my opinion, makes for better decision making.

American consumerist culture and laziness are the reason why Americans are some of the dumbest people on the planet. I tend to find that Americans that buck the trend and think for themselves usually tend to be about as intelligent as most other people around the world. More interestingly, the Americans I do know who are reasonably intelligent usually weren't held back much by "America's crappy education system" and instead made it work for them, because more often than not, access to information is there, but is underutilised.

I don't actually think the American education system is as bas as everyone says it is. People are justifiably upset because it grades work terribly and disincentivises actual learning, but the access to resources and teaching for genuinely interested students seems to be generally fine, at least to the standard of most other developed nations, so I don't buy the more liberal "Americans are actually really smart but their education system is letting them down because of government cost-cutting and corporate greed, that's why they fail" argument either.
Alright now that I've sobered up a bit I can properly articulate thoughts rather than ramble on/deviate into side tangents lol. Tbh I still have no idea what the controversy regarding these Greek historical inaccuracies is... or how we got to this point in the discussion but I kinda dig it.

Seriously though, I tend to dismiss the idea that humans (or that a certain group of humans) are inherently stupid.
On an individual level majority of people are at least competent enough to get by and survive within the system. But there's a different dynamic entirely when the system starts getting everyone divided amongst each other into definable groups, that's where you can really bring out the stupidity of people by messing with herd tendencies. But as I thought about my posts from the other night related to that train of thought I acknowledge that I came to some flawed generalizations, I have admittedly witnessed large groups of people surprisingly maintain proper order. After Hurricane Irma hit and knocked out all the power/traffic signals, almost everyone managed to keep the flow of traffic functioning safely on their own, hell I'd argue they did a better job then the traffic signals themselves lol. The core issue in this regard is how susceptible people allow themselves to be to external influences seeking to manipulate them.

I don't actually think the American education system is as bas as everyone says it is. People are justifiably upset because it grades work terribly and disincentivises actual learning, but the access to resources and teaching for genuinely interested students seems to be generally fine, at least to the standard of most other developed nations, so I don't buy the more liberal "Americans are actually really smart but their education system is letting them down because of government cost-cutting and corporate greed, that's why they fail" argument either.
While aspects of the curriculum have been compromised or fail to foster national unity, your overall point about laziness being the route of most of these issues (in both education and general society) is spot on.

I feel the average American hasn't really learned to value products properly, and Americans generally have so much unfettered access to wealth that sub-par decision making hasn't been a major issue for them.
When I was younger, I used to find it odd that my grandparents were still using decades old appliances and tools, I've come to appreciate it now more though. I really despise the stigma of not having the latest and greatest things, all that should matter is that it comfortably works and is reliable.
 
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dorgon

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I feel the average American hasn't really learned to value products properly, and Americans generally have so much unfettered access to wealth that sub-par decision making hasn't been a major issue for them. When you have even a moderate amount of money, really awful, overpriced products aren't as painful as when you're much poorer. If you can only buy 1 phone to last 4 years, for instance, you're going to make sure it's a rock-solid, reliable, sturdy one, not a status symbol that will be obsolete within 1 year. This sort of forced decision making trains the mind and, in my opinion, makes for better decision making.
I know this with the whole egg thing. Eggs are like $6-8 for a pack of 12, and problem is to a middle class american it doesn't really matter, and they may or may not still end up not eating up all the eggs. One of my roommates bought a 12 pack of eggs only for them to use like 3 and when i tossed them they were a month past their expiration date. Same with the whole iPhone thing too. Why does it matter if it's obsolete? It's a fuckin phone, as long as you can call your mom and connect to the internet somewhat you're good. In fact a friend of mine uses a flip phone (his phone got severely damaged) and he said that he became a more overall productive person and is reading more because of it.
I don't actually think the American education system is as bas as everyone says it is. People are justifiably upset because it grades work terribly and disincentivises actual learning, but the access to resources and teaching for genuinely interested students seems to be generally fine, at least to the standard of most other developed nations, so I don't buy the more liberal "Americans are actually really smart but their education system is letting them down because of government cost-cutting and corporate greed, that's why they fail" argument either.
I think it's bad in a way that not only does the grading system discourage making mistakes (aka REAL learning), but the way school props up itself in many cases is that it sets up a behavior similar to a 9-5. Wake up, do monotonous tasks, go home and watch the TV or the phone. The access to resources varies, for example my high school had access to 3D printing and some other expensive shit as well as up-to-date computers, but there wasn't any practical skills teaching about how to file your taxes or how a mortgage debt works. But I agree that there are a lot of school resources that remain unused, especially when it comes to clubs and certain teachers. It's just that.... schools could teach better things I guess.
After Hurricane Irma hit and knocked out all the power/traffic signals, almost everyone managed to keep the flow of traffic functioning safely on their own, hell I'd argue they did a better job then the traffic signals themselves lol. The core issue in this regard is how susceptible people allow themselves to be to external influences seeking to manipulate them.
Wow, this is something I am surprised at, but I guess it is also because everyone knows that they don't want to get into a car accident after a HURRICANE. As for the herd tendencies, I believe it's because people reinforce each other while being hostile towards dissenters, probably some evolutionary trait that we still have but now tied in with whatever they identify as... That and the fact that the Internet has an awful tendency to rudify and dumbify many things.
 
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h00

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Love how the ragebaiting shitpost gets called out early and OP ignored whilst chad agorians discuss the post-morality era.
iu

@InsufferableCynic would love to see your thoughts here reformatted as its own thread.
 
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bnuungus

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I think everyone should just post in my RP thread though
I still have a couple deep-seated insecurities that prevent me from pretending to be someone else, I hope you understand

After Hurricane Irma hit and knocked out all the power/traffic signals, almost everyone managed to keep the flow of traffic functioning safely on their own, hell I'd argue they did a better job then the traffic signals themselves lol. The core issue in this regard is how susceptible people allow themselves to be to external influences seeking to manipulate them.
I think the takeaway here is that when shit breaks down people naturally gravitate towards what works, and that's always uplifting for me. Once all societal bullshit is removed within a heartbeat people work together and help each other to overcome a common evil. Reminds me of one time where a freak 5 minute tornado hit a road I was on and everyone driving on the road got out to move this 70 foot tree that had fallen down on the road. It was totally impossible for any one person without tools to remove but everyone picked up a small piece and we were able to shuffle it to the side of the agora road. It was a really cool moment to be a part of
 
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I still have a couple deep-seated insecurities that prevent me from pretending to be someone else, I hope you understand


I think the takeaway here is that when shit breaks down people naturally gravitate towards what works, and that's always uplifting for me. Once all societal bullshit is removed within a heartbeat people work together and help each other to overcome a common evil. Reminds me of one time where a freak 5 minute tornado hit a road I was on and everyone driving on the road got out to move this 70 foot tree that had fallen down on the road. It was totally impossible for any one person without tools to remove but everyone picked up a small piece and we were able to shuffle it to the side of the agora road. It was a really cool moment to be a part of
Teamwork makes the dreamwork
 
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InsufferableCynic

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Lack of self-awareness much? Or typical case of "I'll blame people I hate for shit I'm guilty for"?
This thread went from a very surface-level rant about a specific woke decision to a discussion about woke politics vs intellectual laziness vs the current moral landscape. It became interesting, so of course I posted.

Where's the lack of self-awareness exactly?

@InsufferableCynic would love to see your thoughts here reformatted as its own thread.

Thanks for the compliment, I will think about starting a post-morality thread.
 
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№56

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I would say we are in a post-morality era. People used to build logical moral frameworks and then live their lives based on those principles, rejecting things that don't conform.
Nobody has ever done this except for philosophers and most of them don't actually follow their own rules. For the vast majority of people morality has always meant "just doing what's right" based on some set of inherited moral values. The only thing that's changed over the past 100 years is where those values are coming from, and despite that change the average person still manages to act in a moral way most of the time. You don't have to be logical or intellectual or even intelligent to be moral.
 
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InsufferableCynic

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[/QUOTE]
Nobody has ever done this except for philosophers and most of them don't actually follow their own rules. For the vast majority of people morality has always meant "just doing what's right" based on some set of inherited moral values. The only thing that's changed over the past 100 years is where those values are coming from, and despite that change the average person still manages to act in a moral way most of the time. You don't have to be logical or intellectual or even intelligent to be moral.

I think we're both describing the same thing. A logical moral framework doesn't have to be some big complicated moral philosophy exercise, it's essentially any system based on a set of core rules which allow you to analyse certain actions as good or evil externally.

A lot of religious morality is based on this model. Many religions are built on a framework of moral rules (many of which I believe are wrong/outdated, but that's a different discussion). When these rules are defined well, you get well-adjusted people who deliberately act in ways they believe benefit society as a whole. When these rules are badly defined, you get things like religious extremism and people doing great harm because the rules told them it was okay.

Something as basic as "we're all in this together, and we all have boundaries, and we're all free to do whatever we want as long as it doesn't affect anyone else negatively" is good enough to form a moral system capable of moral reasoning.

The core point I am trying to get across is NOT that morality has to be a complex system of rules, and we don't need to spend hours reading philosophy books to know how to act in a given situation. What matters is that we have a basic set of principles that allow us to reason about decisions. In any given situation, our ability to reason should result in us making consistently good (according to the ruleset) moral decisions, and judging others consistently based on the ruleset.

Of course, if your framework sucks, you will make decisions that hurt other people. But at least we can theoretically discuss the merits of framework A vs framework B. When it's all based on emotion, there's no discussion to be had. Instead you get the modern morality of "I was told by a loud TV man that it's bad, therefore it's bad, and anyone who disagrees is obviously evil and needs to be blocked/banned". No discussion is permitted because it's entirely based on emotional outrage and rash knee-jerk decision making. You must be upset at the other side because the entire moral system relies on the other side being evil, which inherently means that anyone who supports them at all - even when they are clearly in the right - is inherently evil.

My parents tried to instil a basic sense of right and wrong in me, and they did so by giving me some simple moral rules to live by. I assume most parents did this. It seems to have been completely overcome in most people by the modern over-stimulated propaganda-laden media landscape.

Ask most boomers today what their moral outlook is, you will get a simple easy to understand framework, like "I believe we can do whatever we want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone". Ask most zoomers, and you will get some empty, meaningless statement like "I stand for justice!" with no context or useful definition. These people have no morality.

EDIT: Please note, when I say "people don't have morality", I don't necessarily mean they are evil. They just have no capacity for moral reasoning, so whether they do good or evil is essentially random, as it's based on emotional states rather than anything tangible. It will usually be an inconsistent, incomprehensible mess.
 
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InsufferableCynic

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You originally posted "I disagree," and then you edited it before I could point out that you don't actually disagree with me. You're editing your post faster than I can respond to it!

Sorry. I have a really bad habit of post-editing for a good 5-10 minutes after any given post.

Whenever I feel happy with a post, I submit it, but then immediately new ideas jump into my head. Every. Fucking. Time.

It's basically done now.
 

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They will be for or against something because it "feels wrong" or "feels right" with no real way to justify it. This is how we get the inconsistency above.
Speaking of that phrase I noticed that most people begin making claims starting with "I feel". I don't think I can really expand on this much but just something I've noticed while interacting with people online. Maybe this ties in with your claim about amorality?
 
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№56

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Ask most boomers today what their moral outlook is, you will get a simple easy to understand framework, like "I believe we can do whatever we want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone". Ask most zoomers, and you will get some empty, meaningless statement like "I stand for justice!" with no context or useful definition. These people have no morality.
I agree with most of what you're saying, but I don't think the state of moral thought in millennials/zoomers is as bad as you make it out to be. Pretty much every young person I've heard talk about about morality has used some variation of your "we're all free to do whatever we want as long as it doesn't affect anyone else negatively" line. I think there are some problems with this postion, but it isn't empty or meaningless. I also don't think parents have given up on teaching their kids morals.
 
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I agree with most of what you're saying, but I don't think the state of moral thought in millennials/zoomers is as bad as you make it out to be. Pretty much every young person I've heard talk about about morality has used some variation of your "we're all free to do whatever we want as long as it doesn't affect anyone else negatively" line. I think there are some problems with this postion, but it isn't empty or meaningless. I also don't think parents have given up on teaching their kids morals.
I agree with most of this sentiment. I believe most of the emotional "amoral" people that InsufferableCynic is referring are a loud minority, and loud minorities receive all the attention. However, social media exacerbates this emotional upheaval, as many social media platforms discourage intellectual moral discussion and encourage more shitflinging. Now this may or may not be on purpose, but even if we assume not, the fact that Tik Tok's 30 second limit or Twitter's 280 character limit is a thing makes content easy to digest but also easier for people to be manipulated. As for parents, I am a little worried about the fact that more and more kids are watching shit on their iPads instead of interacting with their parents. Not all parents, but it's something which I keep noticing whenever i'm out in public
 
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InsufferableCynic

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I agree with most of what you're saying, but I don't think the state of moral thought in millennials/zoomers is as bad as you make it out to be. Pretty much every young person I've heard talk about about morality has used some variation of your "we're all free to do whatever we want as long as it doesn't affect anyone else negatively" line. I think there are some problems with this postion, but it isn't empty or meaningless. I also don't think parents have given up on teaching their kids morals.

Well I notice that a lot of people SAY that this is their moral outlook, but don't actually behave as if this is their moral outlook
 

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