Hopeless Apathy: the civilisation killer

[stonehead]

I did like an hour of online research, and I couldn't find anything about the CIA using doomer memes or anything. I'm sure they make fake social media posts all the time, but I'm not sure if they intentionally weaponize apathy. If anyone else has a link, that'd be awesome, but until then, I think it's just speculation.

Ironically, I think this overwhelming apathetic attitude comes in part from being too comfortable. Maybe "too comfortable" isn't the best way to put it, but like, trying to fix politics or the economy or the environment is hard and involves a not-insignificant amount of risk. People are way more likely to take drastic risks when they have less to lose. But these days, even the most passionate activists have a roof over their head, and eat 3 meals a day. That level of prosperity was not common for most of human history. The desperation of being cold, starving, and destitute is what drives a lot of change.

Just because we aren't starving doesn't mean everything is great. Obviously. It's just really hard to rile up actual support when we all have so much to lose. A weekend of working towards change has to compete with a weekend of watching some shows in a climate controlled apartment, while eating snacks. It used to compete with a weekend of sitting in a ditch and slowly starving to death.

 

[wavve-creator]

People are always expecting the worst and they just put up with it. Perhaps this is a false American perspective (the writer was American)

Americans seem to (or used to seem to have) a vocabulary of triumph thru struggle and hard work. In a way that kept our republic alive with hopeful spirt. A lot of that was drawn from a healthy social contract. I have noticed that as it slips away and more people feel that things are not working for them (no matter if it is real or perceived) we slip deeper into a state of authoritarianism and the welcome respite of constant lies from above.

I have seen the COINTEL PRO methods used to tear apart activist groups with identify politics. Its a horror because it relys on deception, you cant really know for sure if someone in a group is pushing to defang your organization or expose people. It leads to a lot of paranioa which itself is powerful enough to destroy decent. This is why spontaneous and public protests are often useful for coverage to do other things. The glowies becomes excited by crowds.

People are even subtly encouraged to commit suicide with seemingly neutral language such as "I wouldn't fault you" or by posters saying their plan in ten years is to kill themselves. Essentially, people who have given up on everything and everyone.

r/collapse

they set out to drag as many people to the grave as possible either consciously or unconsciously

r/collapse like many places on in cybersapce that become highly poplular (facebook groups are a good example) once they grow past a nitche compacity and the majorty of the users are not people who post high quality or engaging things they slowly become more about the commentary on a thing rather than a plan of action. Too many cooks in the kitchen they are finding a way to downed their pains and it becomes a feedback loop. If you feel shitty and you go to a place where others do too they are just going to reinforce the ideas until they become meme until they become culture.

My assumption is that, being unable to maintain the current course of the west, its leaders have decided to take lessons from autocracies in order to hold on to power. That is to say, they are to inept and intellectually bankrupt and morally craven to create and Shepard a society that loves them so they just use the monopoly on violence and (increasingly) information in order to hold on to the last.

Maybe some politicians are buddy buddy with these people but not all. The people holding on to old power is what is really ripping us towards this. America still some what can carve its own fate. We are being held back significantly by boomers.

Perhaps we are frogs in a boiling pot, but we might as well enjoy it up until the last moment

I like this mentality because it is not self defeatus

God might love us but he is sirring that shit hot.

Even in the greatest trenches of this idea comes hope. Monks know this.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HgYKtem6Rw

I did like an hour of online research,

owo

Ironically, I think this overwhelming apathetic attitude comes in part from being too comfortable.

Just because we aren't starving doesn't mean everything is great. Obviously. It's just really hard to rile up actual support when we all have so much to lose.

Life is much easier than it was 200 years ago for the majority of people. Things are going kind of alright. In the west at least, but there is a dark spectector over us now as we shift from being the dominate economy.

 

[Noxy]

On the thread's topic, here is a nice post on disinformation, but be aware that this text too is a weapon, for it may make users paranoid, point fingers at each-other calling each other a glowie and claiming that they are an agent of disinformation.
It's quite genius, honestly, you can't even discuss this stuff without generating discord within a community.


SIghly Unrelated, but as a response to everyone it may apply to in this thread:

I don't think "Who's to blame" matters as much as identifying things that trigger bad emotional responses or etch itself into your mind to ultimately hurt you.

In the end, you are responsible for your own happiness, mental health, and wellness and only after you take full responsibility over yourself you may try to reach-out and help others. You can't help anyone if both of you are sinking in quick sand.

 

[RisingThumb]

While these are valid reasons for causing hopelessness, they are also reasons to fight for a better life. I'm looking at hopelessness and the psychological warfare of sapping that attack response.

Thinking about it a little more, there's 2 more reasons I can see for not putting your all into it. The longer you're in an environment that stresses you out, and your body responds to it, the more likely you're at risk for health issues further down the line. Happens to people who put their work first and foremost to the point of putting a lot of stress on themselves. Same thing probably happens due to economic reality or barely being able to afford to live a meaningful life.

And the other reason I can think of, is a lot of what causes hopelessness are vague, abstract, large structures that are hard to really reason about, and reason what would be meaningful. Something like Kafka's trial. It also reminds me of a quote from CS Lewis' screwtape letters

In the second place, since his ideas about her soul will be very crude and often erroneous, he will, in some degree, be praying for an imaginary person, and it will be your task to make that imaginary person daily less and less like the real mother — the sharp-tongued old lady at the breakfast table. In time, you may get the cleavage so wide that no thought or feeling from his prayers for the imagined mother will ever flow over into his treatment of the real one. I have had patients of my own so well in hand that they could be turned at a moment's notice from impassioned prayer for a wife's or son's "soul" to beating or insulting the real wife or son without a qualm.

It is both destructive to induce apathy, as well as to make people target imagined problems. The simplest way to make real change is to deal with that change at the most local level you can, first with yourself, then your family, then friends... going outward towards others. If you can meaningfully help them. Not so much a reason not to put your all into it, so much as a reason to reflect on whether what you're doing is tangibly improving peoples lives. Some more good examples of this are in imagined enemies between left and right, cultural differences etc.

This is also probably part of why secular authorities like governments etc, also dislike religious beliefs... as even if their ministerial work is annoying(exemplified in Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses), they are still doing something that they believe improves the lives of others, and their spirits are not as easily dampened. A little part of why the Soviets persecuted Christians extensively due to how much of a threat they presented to their governance.

Imagined enemies also reminds me of this John Cleese skit about extremism

 

[Babble Cowboy]

yourself, then your family, then friends... going outward

Well put, but what would the actual sequence be? I can think of 'interest clubs' or something like that, but then only blanks.

 

[wavve-creator]

This blog post I read today seems highly relevant to this thread

Nobody Cares

 

[Noxy]

This blog post I read today seems highly relevant to this thread

Nobody Cares

Nobody Cares about anything! People should care!

I just wanna live a peaceful life uwu

 

[wavve-creator]

View attachment 141490

Nice. This article is also a bit non self aware which is why its almost perfect.

The amount of times the author fantasies about Japan being a society where people care is funny. They are correct, people care a lot in Japan. Not enough to have children above replacement levels but enough not to throw trash on the ground.

Sort of like how there are pockets of care in NYC. Upper west side people do not throw trash on the ground very often. East Harlem people just throw trash where ever.

 

[Richard Smith]

This blog post I read today seems highly relevant to this thread

Nobody Cares

It's a good point initially but hampered somewhat by the authors own powerlessness. He brings up Elon Musk at one point as someone who cares deeply about things but he fails to expand on the point. It's not that Elon cares a ton about being in a society that cares, it's that he has an obsession that he pursues with a great deal of will. I would like to clarify that I am not an Elon Musk supporter for the record, but that's beside the point. The author, despite being a presumably skilled programmer who worked at a Big Tech company, and this more well off than 99 percent of people who have ever lived, is a dim bulb. His ideas of improving society are going through bureaucracy or doing small neighborhood improvements no one will pay any heed to. When that fails he throws a tantrum and laments that he doesn't live in Japan, which is also dumb as with his skillset and funds he could easily move there.

The point I'm getting at is to me he came off as someone with very little ambition. He wants a society that cares but his ideas to get people to care are essentially nonexistent and he gives up the second he hits a roadblock. I can also guarantee you that whatever startup he is working at is doing nothing to solve the situation either as it's probably some b2b software company. So it's an impotent shout into the void over all. Interesting article.

 

[nobo]

Discord formatted text

It's called markdown.

 

[BarnSwallow]

This blog post I read today seems highly relevant to this thread

Nobody Cares

I feel bad for the guy, I really do, as many of the things he wants to change are already "fixed" in my community.

Most notable, his rant against LED white lights is particularly tragic. My hometown's Main Street got torn up and modernized by the state. No one in charge gave a shit and it showed. They did such a shit job, and the LED lights were so hated, that the whole town petitioned the state for weeks. Eventually the state relented and redid the roads so they no longer turned your ride into a vibrating chair... but they left the lights in place. Yet, God willing, miracles do happen. You see, that road was actually... haunted. It's true! Every night, one of the street lamps would have their bulbs smashed. It was like a ghost attack. When questioned, no one in town could explain it. Local police swore they had no leads. And if a light was replaced, it would usually break again the next day. Eventually the state had enough of the mysterious spontaneously exploding lights and reverted back to sodium bulbs. Problem solved, somehow. Probably because ghosts like the yellow lights or something.

I guess the moral of the story is, if you want to get things done, sometimes you need to have invisible ghosts attacking problematic infrastructure for your overlords to notice.

When that fails he throws a tantrum and laments that he doesn't live in Japan, which is also dumb as with his skillset and funds he could easily move there.

I was going to call you a dumb pile of shit for implying that people just pack up and leave instead of trying to fix their shitty situation. Then I read the blog post and saw the writer wanted to move somewhere else in the USA because no one wanted to do free bureaucratic labor with him. Nah, you were right, this guy is a whiny bitch even if his complaints are valid.

 

[Parzival]

This is just like my favorite 2010 visual novel: Danganronpa: Trigger Happy Havoc!

 

[wavve-creator]

Then I read the blog post

The blog post is written by a an archyptical liberal which I have met many times. They do not have enough ambition (or are full of fear) to do anything effectively alone. I like to call them the complainer class.

I guess the moral of the story is, if you want to get things done, sometimes you need to have invisible ghosts attacking problematic infrastructure for your overlords to notice.

this is the correct way to wage asymmetrical warfare via activism.

Arguable when I was younger I was highly attracted to communiat groups and ideas because they oppose the above liberal complainer class and actually do something. While they obviously have their own problems i think it revels that apathy is a modern liberal quality.

When I taught Lenins works to college kids he often wrote about his opposition to liberalism and how liberals are the useful idiots of fascism. He described apathy as a lead cause of authoritiansm.

I think most of the people in this thread might agree that apathy is leading us into a situation where few control the many.

Perhaps it's not the killer of civilization but the killer of personal freedom.

You lose what you don't care about.

It leads me back to the saying form Jefferson.

Now and agian the tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots.

 

[cloudfair]

I recall it being listed in a declassified CIA doc as a technique for online warfare. If anyone can link that I'd be thankful. It's a technique that Russia have used in the past on their own populace in order to stay in power.

Is this the one where it lists a bunch of techniques like "create a false division of opinion" "pretend to agree with a side to sabotage them" and is about discussions online? I remember seeing it in multiple forms, sometimes attached to a title like "COINTEL PRO cheat sheet" or something.

Not sure if this stuff is exactly what you are looking for, but here are a few links i found.

https://vault.fbi.gov/cointel-pro
These are official fbi docs about cointel pro and separated by certain groups like "white hate groups", "black extremist", "new left" and more. Some of them are very very long. Its all political though and not necessarily an operation just to make normal people hate themselves. Also, there is a lot of redacted content.

gentlepersons guide to forum spies
cointel pro techniques for dilution
25 ways to suppress truth: rules for disinformation
These are not official government documents, but one of them might be the "cointel pro cheat sheet" you were referring to. I think they were compiled by people from different gov documents including the cointel pro ones above.

document deletion request
and then this is an official CIA document about george bush (when he was CIA director) requesting permission from congress to destroy documents relating to cointelpro, operation chaos (spying on americans), and other programs. congress refused because they wanted to hold cia accountable for illegal surveillance but i think the CIA and DoD referenced some executive orders that allowed them to destroy them

 

[Punp]

Not sure if this stuff is exactly what you are looking for, but here are a few links i found.

https://vault.fbi.gov/cointel-pro
These are official fbi docs about cointel pro and separated by certain groups like "white hate groups", "black extremist", "new left" and more. Some of them are very very long. Its all political though and not necessarily an operation just to make normal people hate themselves. Also, there is a lot of redacted content.

gentlepersons guide to forum spies
cointel pro techniques for dilution
25 ways to suppress truth: rules for disinformation
These are not official government documents, but one of them might be the "cointel pro cheat sheet" you were referring to. I think they were compiled by people from different gov documents including the cointel pro ones above.

document deletion request
and then this is an official CIA document about george bush (when he was CIA director) requesting permission from congress to destroy documents relating to cointelpro, operation chaos (spying on americans), and other programs. congress refused because they wanted to hold cia accountable for illegal surveillance but i think the CIA and DoD referenced some executive orders that allowed them to destroy them

YES! I must've read it in a GCHQ powerpoint presentation. I don't think they're specifically the ones here, but they are probably from the batch from 2012 talking about disruption and it was written in the same "voice" as Squeaky Dolphin.

Preemptive reminder not to be the one to leak documents marked secret onto a clearnet forum.

 

[幽邃森林]

I recall it being listed in a declassified CIA doc as a technique for online warfare. If anyone can link that I'd be thankful. It's a technique that Russia have used in the past on their own populace in order to stay in power.

I can't find any sources for this, but I am certain it is useful for those in power. Learned helplessness is a common trait amongst my Russian, Chinese, and now Hong Konger friends. They have a "yep, that's just the way things are." attitude with a dash of cynicism.

As for free countries that are transforming into oligarchies, it's useful for those in power too. But unlike Hong Kong, this learned helplessness wasn't beaten into the people through mass arrests, life in prison, torture, etc. Rather it looks like it was manifested amongst the angsty teens during the turn of the century. It was "cool" to point out that your vote doesn't matter due to {insert statistic here}. Being active in elections means that you are part of the masses (normie) and as all of you know, it's UNCOOL to be a part of the masses....which is ironic because participating in local elections makes a difference and those who are active in elections are the minority.

 

[Some_porcupine]

It's no wonder people feel hopeless! The hopeless part I absolutely believe is real and holds merit. As for the apathy part, it's possible to induce apathy in people. It has a name... Learned helplessness. I've noted it before, but a lot of modern stoicism that people preach is just learned helplessness and distancing yourself from your emotions. Teaching people to boil in their frustration.

yup. also "both sides bad" vs commies on substack "stating otherwise"... (bernie, aoc) they are same, it is elipse. they just want same end by different means.

Also it's unsurprising the people in power want to hold power by inducing learned helplessness in people. Less people protesting them and doing work against them, the more comfortable they are in power.

fa66ots lazy! (they better) say how it is! it is better to know than vaguely pointing "you (users) are problem (for having no other option than we give you)!"

 

[Some_porcupine]

The end result of nihilism, resentment culture and hedonism.

We are living in the most technologically advanced era of mankind. All it takes is a little ambition and people can rise through. That would take effort though and to stop whining and blaming problems on 'systemic' issues and capitalism.

what to do? to be evil and "same" as those we hate, or to help others and pretend it will NOT be same in 10+ years?...

basically:

On the society level, a cowed and beaten down populace is easier to keep in line since they cannot dream of anything different or better. It's not just material conditions being bad, but robbing people of even the ability to have a moments peace writhing their head. If you are at war with yourself you can't go to war with anyone else. My assumption is that, being unable to maintain the current course of the west, its leaders have decided to take lessons from autocracies in order to hold on to power. That is to say, they are to inept and intellectually bankrupt and morally craven to create and Shepard a society that loves them so they just use the monopoly on violence and (increasingly) information in order to hold on to the last.

 

[Some_porcupine]

I did like an hour of online research, and I couldn't find anything about the CIA using doomer memes or anything. I'm sure they make fake social media posts all the time, but I'm not sure if they intentionally weaponize apathy. If anyone else has a link, that'd be awesome, but until then, I think it's just speculation.i

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/wdke7x/whats_up_with_memes_about_the_ciafbi_grooming/

A look at the CIA’s internal dank meme division

The CIA's malware development team dug deep into geek culture.

arstechnica.com

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341738736_Just_a_Joke_The_Social_Impact_of_Internet_Memes

Social Media Is a Tool of the CIA. Seriously

The CIA publishes a helpful list of press releases on all the social media ventures it sponsors via its technology investment arm, In-Q-Tel.

www.cbsnews.com

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/auo0lb/exploring_the_utility_of_memes_for_us_government/

if i could be able to find more (if these are true at all)

Ironically, I think this overwhelming apathetic attitude comes in part from being too comfortable. Maybe "too comfortable" isn't the best way to put it, but like, trying to fix politics or the economy or the environment is hard and involves a not-insignificant amount of risk. People are way more likely to take drastic risks when they have less to lose. But these days, even the most passionate activists have a roof over their head, and eat 3 meals a day. That level of prosperity was not common for most of human history. The desperation of being cold, starving, and destitute is what drives a lot of change.

"going postal", fight club, network - gen x fantasies of breaking apart from mold (society)

---

On the thread's topic, here is a nice post on disinformation, but be aware that this text too is a weapon, for it may make users paranoid, point fingers at each-other calling each other a glowie and claiming that they are an agent of disinformation.
It's quite genius, honestly, you can't even discuss this stuff without generating discord within a community.

there was saying in our chat, that "some biases (figures they are marked as; meaning of them(selves)) are fake - same way "conspiracy rtheory" is supossed to work"... who said it? was it joke? anyway, i may start to believe it...

 

[wavve-creator]

Every generation is relebelious when they are young and not in contorl.

Many are rebellious when they are simply not in contorl.