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i really hate indie culture so much

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text arcade mystery
t a murder mystery
t a sexy murder mystery (sfw)
t a s m mystery (nsfw)
t... mystery (gore) > t... nystery (horror)
the oregon trail
edutainment genre
edu genre
entertainment genre
boring, -better-than-school bs
timekillers (bad) > (good) > (so bad it is good) > (so good it is bad (you feel weird about it))
energy killers
surreal games
MKUltra experimental games
m e games (by accident, goofy)
...
 
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nsequeira119

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:elonE: What do I even say
I do know the names of most of them, because there are only a few. They all look really boring and lame. Kentucky Route Zero, What Remains Of Edith Finch, The Witness, The Beginner's Guide- really boring crap that would be much better off as another medium like a novel or a movie. Nobody wants to play as Depressed Joe visiting his mom's grave, and that's all these so-called "indie" games are, they're mediocre dramas for 30-year-olds who are too immature to read. I'm pretty sure I own more sci-fi paperbacks than there are indie games. I got like 5,000, and that's a tiny fraction of all the ones that have ever been published. If you can prove there are more indie games than pulp fiction paperbacks, go for it, I suppose.

That said, I don't know any of the specs of these games because I'm not a programming nerd.
 
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Ross_Я

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They all look really boring and lame. Kentucky Route Zero, What Remains Of Edith Finch, The Witness, The Beginner's Guide- really boring crap that would be much better off as another medium like a novel or a movie.
I mean, yea. I fucking agree with you, and I myself hardly can believe it, but you've indeed named the pure borefests. These games would be better off as a novel or a movie - they are barely games. They are walking simulators. Their main loop is walking around and reading text.
What I want to say here... Dude. These are really games only barely. Try, you know, actual games, where you have to play stuff. Like Rikki & Vikki. Or Rising Up. Or Princess Remedy. Or Cthulhu Saves The World. There are not a few of them - there are lots of them, you've just named the worst, because... I don't know why. Maybe you just don't know better, but there are games. Like, actual games, not interactive novels.

Edit: you like attaching videos, so here's a video to my point.
 
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nsequeira119

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I mean, yea. I fucking agree with you, and I myself hardly can believe it, but you've indeed named the pure borefests. These games would be better off as a novel or a movie - they are barely games. They are walking simulators. Their main loop is walking around and reading text.
What I want to say here... Dude. These are really games only barely. Try, you know, actual games, where you have to play stuff. Like Rikki & Vikki. Or Rising Up. Or Princess Remedy. Or Cthulhu Saves The World. There are not a few of them - there are lots of them, you've just named the worst, because... I don't know why. Maybe you just don't know better, but there are games. Like, actual games, not interactive novels.

Edit: you like attaching videos, so here's a video to my point.

I don't refrain from playing video games because none of them are exciting- I know some of them are more exciting than the pretentious ones- ultimately I dislike the fact that they pretend as if the player is capable of making an actual decision when the entire story and environment have been preprogrammed beforehand. I don't like illusory agency. I choose to interact with the real world because I have complete, absolute free will here and in a video game I would only be able to visit a finite amount of preprogrammed locations with a finite amount of preprogrammed dialogue options. At that point I may as well just watch a movie, because a movie doesn't require player input and it doesn't lie to me and pretend as if I have a choice about what happens.
 
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Ross_Я

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ultimately I dislike the fact that they pretend as if the player is capable of making an actual decision when the entire story and environment have been preprogrammed beforehand.
Who are they? Video games ain't pretend being anything - they are just video games. If some effective PR manager spills it in your ear that their game totally has choices - it is not video game's fault.
Also, I bet you are just making stuff up as you go. Again. "I do not like video games, because finite amount of whatever, but I soooooo love movies and books" - yea, sounds legit.
I feel like talking with you is absolutely useless.
 
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nsequeira119

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Who are they? Video games ain't pretend being anything - they are just video games. If some effective PR manager spills it in your ear that their game totally has choices - it is not video game's fault.
Also, I bet you are just making stuff up as you go. Again. "I do not like video games, because finite amount of whatever, but I soooooo love movies and books" - yea, sounds legit.
I feel like talking with you is absolutely useless.
It is pretty legit from a philosophical standpoint. Movies and books are also finite, but they don't offer you fake interactivity. The only ones that do are those old "choose-your-own-adventure" books from the 90s. Actually, those are basically like video games- they pretend like you're making your own decision and have completely free will, but ultimately there are only about 23 pre-written endings you can get before you run out. Unlike real life, where you can make an infinite amount of decisions at any second. I guess if you're amazed that someone can write more than 1 possible ending to a story, video games might impress you- but I grew out of choose-your-own-adventure books when I was around 10.

Believe it or not, advertising executives can and should be held accountable for deceptive advertising, and that absolutely is a problem with video games. Back in the '50s, if some slick cigarette ad said that Camels had the smoothest taste, I would say it was absolutely the fault of the cigarette company, and the ad agency, and the entire cigarette-oriented system, that it was rotten to the core. The same goes for video games. If I see an ad for Detroit: Become Human that says I can do anything in its cheap-looking world, and then I try to become a professional flagpole sitter, and the game doesn't let me do that because it's actually a story about robots, and it wants to tell its robot story, then I'm going to call it out on its bullshit and watch Blade Runner instead, because Blade Runner doesn't make false promises.

I spend my time writing short stories and novels, because that is actually a way to interact with a fictional world and express your own free will at the same time, your limitless agency as a thinking, living being, as opposed to the fictional people you create. I can do way more shit writing a novel than I can in Fallout: New Vegas or whatever. If I could, I could write a story where a guy becomes a professional flagpole sitter, eats 50,000 donuts in a single day, breathes underwater- whatever the Hell I want whenever the Hell I want. All at once if I feel like it. No mods, no cheats, no source code and no engine. Just my brain.

Keep enjoying your Goosebumps, though. Whatever makes you happy.
Give Yourself Goosebumps.jpg
 
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Ross_Я

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Games are not necessarily offer you fake interactivity - there are completely straightforward, linear games, which do not pretend to do nothing but the gameplay loop. I've even named some: Rikki & Vikki and Rising Up. Fuck, Rising Up doesn't even have a dialogue. And have you ever heard of DOOM, 1993? Just, I don't know, one wild example. Out of thousands.
I'm not even going to touch your other points. I'm done with you.
 
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nsequeira119

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Games are not necessarily offer you fake interactivity - there are completely straightforward, linear games, which do not pretend to do nothing but the gameplay loop. I've even named some: Rikki & Vikki and Rising Up. Fuck, Rising Up doesn't even have a dialogue. And have you ever heard of DOOM, 1993? Just, I don't know, one wild example. Out of thousands.
I'm not even going to touch your other points. I'm done with you.
Okay. Bye-bye.

Anyhoo, to anyone else on this thread, I don't even particularly care about indie music (it's not even the type music I ever listen to). But I do think there should be some standards in the field, and less industry plants, because it's not possible for everything that refers to itself as "indie" to actually be indie. That's just something I've noticed. I listen to a lot of commercial trash.
 
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LostintheCycle

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nsequeira, I agree with you in a lot of ways. I think you may enjoy this post I made a while ago.
I appreciate that I know of somebody who is critical of media that I can find some agreement in. Nonetheless, some of your arguments/comparisons are plain wrong, for instance you commenting on games while admitting you don't know much about them, and also another case where you compared writing a novel (creating) to playing a game (not creating) when that clearly isn't a good comparison.
Anyway, I wanted to give my thoughts on the state of 'game as art'.

I believe in video games there is a chasm between those who have created this idea about artificial 'game storytelling' and everyone else who just wants to make a fun game. If progress is to be made in games, designers need to consider the qualities of 'game' on a deeper level and realize the expressive potential of that.
Principally, what does a game do? It places the one who engages within rather than outside.
That is it. I tried to think of other principles, but I can't think of any which aren't just a consequence of this simple fact. This is such a fundamental and unique difference, and is deeply consequential, that I think we just haven't yet wrapped our heads around it. Some apply irrelevant ideas of storytelling and expression to games and end up with bad 'games as art' games. Most people just try make a fun game, which is more admirable and productive but I would not say is pushing the boundaries of expressive potential.
One game I can think of which achieved what I personally envision as expression through game is Factorio. While it is an extraordinarily fun game, it also coaxed a very interesting sense of greed out of me through its mechanics. It's not overt about it, it doesn't point it out, it might not even be intentional, but I think it's a real artistic expression of the game. The realization of how the corrupting influence of power could affect even your highly esteemed self; I think a novel could express that, but I doubt it could be so visceral. Because that particular expression is riding right on that aforementioned principle of placing the viewer within and achieving firsthand experience, rather than them being an outside observer.
Another example is I saw this game, don't remember the name, but it was a 4D puzzle game, which has excellent potential to communicate what the implications of 4D space is, and by the viewer being within rather than an observer, you can 'feel' how it works rather than see a mere visualization.
Of course the thing about games as art shouldn't just be about only doing things which a novel can't do, that's silly. But there is some unique quality of the medium full of potential, and that is extraordinarily underexplored despite the fact that we have got people with fucking PhDs in game design supposedly researching this costanzayeahrightsmirk
All that besides I think we should be playing less videogames anyway, but that's a whole other topic.
 
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nsequeira119

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nsequeira, I agree with you in a lot of ways. I think you may enjoy this post I made a while ago.
I appreciate that I know of somebody who is critical of media that I can find some agreement in. Nonetheless, some of your arguments/comparisons are plain wrong, for instance you commenting on games while admitting you don't know much about them, and also another case where you compared writing a novel (creating) to playing a game (not creating) when that clearly isn't a good comparison.
Anyway, I wanted to give my thoughts on the state of 'game as art'.

I believe in video games there is a chasm between those who have created this idea about artificial 'game storytelling' and everyone else who just wants to make a fun game. If progress is to be made in games, designers need to consider the qualities of 'game' on a deeper level and realize the expressive potential of that.
Principally, what does a game do? It places the one who engages within rather than outside.
That is it. I tried to think of other principles, but I can't think of any which aren't just a consequence of this simple fact. This is such a fundamental and unique difference, and is deeply consequential, that I think we just haven't yet wrapped our heads around it. Some apply irrelevant ideas of storytelling and expression to games and end up with bad 'games as art' games. Most people just try make a fun game, which is more admirable and productive but I would not say is pushing the boundaries of expressive potential.
One game I can think of which achieved what I personally envision as expression through game is Factorio. While it is an extraordinarily fun game, it also coaxed a very interesting sense of greed out of me through its mechanics. It's not overt about it, it doesn't point it out, it might not even be intentional, but I think it's a real artistic expression of the game. The realization of how the corrupting influence of power could affect even your highly esteemed self; I think a novel could express that, but I doubt it could be so visceral. Because that particular expression is riding right on that aforementioned principle of placing the viewer within and achieving firsthand experience, rather than them being an outside observer.
Another example is I saw this game, don't remember the name, but it was a 4D puzzle game, which has excellent potential to communicate what the implications of 4D space is, and by the viewer being within rather than an observer, you can 'feel' how it works rather than see a mere visualization.
Of course the thing about games as art shouldn't just be about only doing things which a novel can't do, that's silly. But there is some unique quality of the medium full of potential, and that is extraordinarily underexplored despite the fact that we have got people with fucking PhDs in game design supposedly researching this costanzayeahrightsmirk
All that besides I think we should be playing less videogames anyway, but that's a whole other topic.
I figure, after 500 Jacob Geller video essays talking about the hidden proto-Nietzschean principles of Beat Saber, that video games are probably the most overexplored and overanalyzed medium around today, and there should be more quality videos about comics.

Your take is very based, though. Goated with the sauce, as all things should be.
 
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My only problem with the current trend of the 'indie culture' is that all of them find it fashionable to open up a discord server rather than a forum and good lord are they a quick reminder that most of the discord servers are filled to be brim with people who cannot develop a personality outside of "I'm horny" shit.
 
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Ross_Я

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My only problem with the current trend of the 'indie culture' is that all of them find it fashionable to open up a discord server rather than a forum and good lord are they a quick reminder that most of the discord servers are filled to be brim with people who cannot develop a personality outside of "I'm horny" shit.
Yea. Even modding Discord servers have a mandatory furfag. Like, really, it's like they are state-given to every Discord server. They don't even contribuite anything (talk about furries knowing coding - yeah, right, somehow all the ones I've encountered are imbeciles), they just sit there and... pop up on ocassion for whatever reason.
I also can't understand for the life of it why people are ready to give all their files, works, data into the hands of whoever rule the Discord, and who can just delete everything on a whim. I mean, there's a trouble like that with websites as well, but, IMO, you are much safer with a site and a right hosting server rather than... there.
Pardon for the off-topic, but Discord looks like the very last option in my eyes and I for the love of God cannot understand why everyone and their mom are using it nowadays. Pretty much every modding community unrelated to the well-known titles I've ever found had to be in the Discord for whatever reason.
 
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Jodo_Fan

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there should be more quality videos about comics.

No videos, but have you checked out these guys? (Warning: They may be a little too far over on the pretentious art-talk scale for some.)

Matthias Wivel

Austin English

Kim Jooha
 
fakeness: wtf happened in 2010s that people now support rich people/monopolies? (not all irl, but on interent, most of normies), like they ever care, provide something... they do, but we surely could do better (ok, id stop here and wait away my black parade 20-sec phase...)
 
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