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punishedgnome

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Stop caring what others think of you is also what gives us gems like bronies and redditors, it's what gives us people with no hygiene or manners.
When people give the advice "stop caring", they assume you're not autistic. If "stop caring" translates to "stop brushing your teeth" or "stop showering" or "beat off to ponies" or "cuddle an anime pillow" you have issues that advice on the Internet is not going to fix. Most people have a natural cringe reflex that they do not need to consciously activate, someone who openly masturbates to ponies and doesn't brush their teeth lacks this reflex whither through extremely poor socialization or some other issue such as autism.

Most people can sense when someone is trying too hard or cares way too much and it's off putting because it reeks of desperation. "Stop caring" just means "Don't come off as desperate."
 
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manpaint

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When people give the advice "stop caring", they assume you're not autistic. If "stop caring" translates to "stop brushing your teeth" or "stop showering" or "beat off to ponies" or "cuddle an anime pillow" you have issues that advice on the Internet is not going to fix. Most people have a natural cringe reflex that they do not need to consciously activate, someone who openly masturbates to ponies and doesn't brush their teeth lacks this reflex whither through extremely poor socialization or some other issue such as autism.

Most people can sense when someone is trying too hard or cares way too much and it's off putting because it reeks of desperation. "Stop caring" just means "Don't come off as desperate."
As an autist, I don't think the autism is the cause for their weirdness (but perphaps is an amplifier). I think it's just weird people being weird.
 

punishedgnome

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As an autist, I don't think the autism is the cause for their weirdness (but perphaps is an amplifier). I think it's just weird people being weird.
Absolutely agree. One of my best friends from high school was autistic and ended up getting married and had a kid and had a successful career. Being autistic doesn't mean you're doomed to be a brony. However I think your assessment that it is probably an amplifier is correct. When you have trouble picking up on social cues, you're less likely to have that little voice that goes "This is weird. Maybe I should keep this to myself." That little voice is built out of feedback you get via social cues from others.

The root cause is poor socialization. You don't have to be autistic to be poorly socialized, and all autistic people are not poorly socialized, but you're more like to be poorly socialized if you're autistic.
 
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manpaint

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Absolutely agree. One of my best friends from high school was autistic and ended up getting married and had a kid and had a successful career. Being autistic doesn't mean you're doomed to be a brony. However I think your assessment that it is probably an amplifier is correct. When you have trouble picking up on social cues, you're less likely to have that little voice that goes "This is weird. Maybe I should keep this to myself." That little voice is built out of feedback you get via social cues from others.

The root cause is poor socialization. You don't have to be autistic to be poorly socialized, and all autistic people are not poorly socialized, but you're more like to be poorly socialized if you're autistic.
Yeah, I think what it does is that it amplifies your passion for a given thing you do and as a result, you never shut up about it, regardless of the implications.

This obviously can lead some people to behave weirdly in public.
 

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I see, is that the reason why they are always acting super weird and deplorable when women enter this node too? Either everyone jumps on them immediately (oh you are so pretty and cute, wanna do something) or shuns them away and harasses them. And then we have things like "gamergate" and girl twitch streamer gaining horny boys en masse as followers. The 2010s were so weird in this regards 'gamergirl'
The reason behind this is because women upset the balance. The second one of them gets a date they are likely to leave the group because they'll have something resembling an active social life. They must keep women out to protect their lifestyle.
 
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RustedZaku

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Not a real problem or issue. It's just that like with everything related to the internet of things, the media has found one single small subset of people they want to make out to be the next big terrorists because that's their main product.
 

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These people usually only speak to other constantly online nerds which creates what's called an isolated social node. That is a group which does not expand and is heavily inward looking. Other types of social connections consistently expand to meet new people and gain real world experience. Nerd groups typically don't do this which results in isolation and celibacy. Unless you break this cycle you will remain a virgin.
I'm telling you, some girls are into this.
 

no_chill

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Definitely not and I wouldn't vouch for the efficiency of this strategy on the whole. I'm just saying on an individual level, it's not the automatic disqualifier it once was.
Yeah now the Idea isnt the disqualifier anymore but the people within it. You know, the thing all those idiots screamed "Stereotypes!" Or "Prejudice" years before.
 
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punishedgnome

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Definitely not and I wouldn't vouch for the efficiency of this strategy on the whole. I'm just saying on an individual level, it's not the automatic disqualifier it once was.
I just picture those groups of like really nerdy guys you see at college. Like I'm pretty nerdy, but I can pass for normal, I mean REALLY nerdy guys, and one of them is the alpha nerd and has a girlfriend who always wears shit like butterfly wings and shit and his 5-6 buddies are constantly thirsting after her. Eventually she starts fucking one of the other ones and there's this big blowup in the friend group.

Does that still happen? I remember seeing that happen all the time back when I was in university, but I started university 20 years ago this month.
 
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What I don't get is how incels collectively try to hold up their wierd illusions and headcanons about dating/women and seem to get thier 'lore' only from people who admittedly have little or no contact to women, forming this wierd circle jerk/safe space.
In my opinion, this is because it's way easier to identify in a super-strict container, which you can treat as your tribe/religion/whatever, than to find your own middle ground. If you have more than one clique of friends, you may have experienced first-hand what I'm talking about: each group has its own little quirks that are used to "define" said group, and the members use them when in contact with others.
But whenever he's hanging out in a group with me I notice how he's basically invisible to women, only being dealt the minimum interaction from them so as to not cause social friction.
This happens to uglier women too: I found proofs of it in many social situations and different social groups. And I think it's obvious: as women don't care about unpleasant men, men don't care about unpleasant women.
essentially what you're saying here is 'it's fine to play games, just don't be a gamer" right?
The golden rule for life is to use things and concepts without determining yourself with said things and concepts.
Touch grass.
The only real answer to the problem.
 
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Novem_IX

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Nah, 90-95% of men watch porn regularly. If porn is some debilitating factor, then more men would suffer from it.
It's kinda like alcohol. Most can consume it without any problems, only alcoholics struggle with it. But only porn addicts will project their weakness onto people having fun and claim that this will ruin them somehow while the alcoholic is at least honest bc he knows he is the problem.
There's a fundamental difference between our viewpoints - I don't view the 90%, the median, as an example worth following. Quite the opposite.
Nor do I think that alcohol is a good analogy for porn. Booze, for all it's dangers, helps people socialize, have fun, enjoy life in the moment. Porn isolates. It's a cheap and artificial substitute for the satisfaction of natural desires, that's my real problem with it.
I will agree with you one point; many guys do use porn as an excuse for their failures in the real world. "When I stop watching porn, then I'll be able to go talk to girls..." Excuses, excuses. They're limiting their possibilities by ascribing more power to external factors than they deserve. What's really needed on their part is action (in both senses of the word.)
 
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Novem_IX

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But enough about porn, I agree with most everything OP said. It's strange that "incel" has become a label that men proudly adopt for themselves, because it's a self-limiting belief. You don't get to give up and simultaneously complain about not getting any. Now, I do understand why some guys give up. It sucks, but the reality is that some men are just NGMI. Imagine being unattractive, inexperienced, socially inept, and poor. Yeah, try "personalitymaxxing" or "lookmaxxing" your way out of that. There's quite a few men out there who fit that description, and I don't blame them for checking out of the modern dating scene. Not everyone is meant to reproduce.
The problem is that these guys form online communities based around shared resentment and infect average men who are temporarily struggling with their lopsided perspective. They see all the faults of women, but never the positives. They are the exact analogue of the wine aunt feminists who view masculinity as inherently violent and tyrannical.
I don't believe there's an easy answer to the incel question. It's a dilemma as old as time (not everyone is going to find a partner), but the internet has helped make it into a vicious cycle. Also, a lot of guys need to lower their standards a bit.
 
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Andy Kaufman

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But enough about porn, I agree with most everything OP said. It's strange that "incel" has become a label that men proudly adopt for themselves, because it's a self-limiting belief. You don't get to give up and simultaneously complain about not getting any. Now, I do understand why some guys give up. It sucks, but the reality is that some men are just NGMI. Imagine being unattractive, inexperienced, socially inept, and poor. Yeah, try "personalitymaxxing" or "lookmaxxing" your way out of that. There's quite a few men out there who fit that description, and I don't blame them for checking out of the modern dating scene. Not everyone is meant to reproduce.
The problem is that these guys form online communities based around shared resentment and infect average men who are temporarily struggling with their lopsided perspective. They see all the faults of women, but never the positives. They are the exact analogue of the wine aunt feminists who view masculinity as inherently violent and tyrannical.
I don't believe there's an easy answer to the incel question. It's a dilemma as old as time (not everyone is going to find a partner), but the internet has helped make it into a vicious cycle. Also, a lot of guys need to lower their standards a bit.
Yes we almost need a term for normal guys who just happen to be incels and then another one for this wierd cult you described.
 
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Linkat

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There's a fundamental difference between our viewpoints - I don't view the 90%, the median, as an example worth following. Quite the opposite.
Nor do I think that alcohol is a good analogy for porn. Booze, for all it's dangers, helps people socialize, have fun, enjoy life in the moment. Porn isolates. It's a cheap and artificial substitute for the satisfaction of natural desires, that's my real problem with it.
I will agree with you one point; many guys do use porn as an excuse for their failures in the real world. "When I stop watching porn, then I'll be able to go talk to girls..." Excuses, excuses. They're limiting their possibilities by ascribing more power to external factors than they deserve. What's really needed on their part is action (in both senses of the word.)
The thing is that when you do cut out the porn socialising does become easier. And that goes for both sexes. You can't talk to people when watching that stuff because it dominates your mind. You'll be thinking about yourself as "that guy who looks at X". It destroys your self image and thus you cannot talk to anyone who isn't also watching it. It produces a certain type of personality which involves constantly putting yourself down. The idea is that your entire personality and sense of self will improve drastically after removing that stuff from your life.
 
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no_chill

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The thing is that when you do cut out the porn socialising does become easier. And that goes for both sexes. You can't talk to people when watching that stuff because it dominates your mind. You'll be thinking about yourself as "that guy who looks at X". It destroys your self image and thus you cannot talk to anyone who isn't also watching it. It produces a certain type of personality which involves constantly putting yourself down. The idea is that your entire personality and sense of self will improve drastically after removing that stuff from your life.
Porn does make you indifferent and prohibits you from getting that male "aggression" that lets you seek out mates and gives you the courage to talk up random woman you find attractive. 100% dead serious on that. When I like dont masturbate and dont watch any arousing material I get this heat so seek someone out. And I do find it easier getting what I want. Watching porn and jerking alone makes you complacent. It just makes you chase the cum instead of the intimacy and passion with another person. Be it a friend or a stranger.
 
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