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Is it even ethical to have children?

Ross_Я

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First off, come and take it. You'll get the death you're glorifying real quick.

Second off, you sound like you have some mental health issues totally unrelated to the topic, but it's feeding your responses. Also you're clearly not happy for me if you're calling me a fat rich asshole who deserves to be shot.
That was meant to be an exaggerated example to remind you not to talk complete out-of-your-ass bullshit about other people. If you can assume that "I don't want to make any sacrifices in my hedonistic lifestyle" without walking a mile in my torn shoes, why can't I? Not even that picture managed to tell you that it is a shitpost of a line and I'm not going to kill people over the argument in a web.

I'm glad you are taking it seriously though.
 
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Vitnira

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That was meant to be an exaggerated example to remind you not to talk complete out-of-your-ass bullshit about other people. If you can assume that "I don't want to make any sacrifices in my hedonistic lifestyle" without walking a mile in my torn shoes, why can't I? Not even that picture managed to tell you that it is a shitpost of a line and I'm not going to kill people over the argument in a web.

I'm glad you are taking it seriously though.
I dunno, you could also be so poor you think communism would solve your problems.

The general audience I'm speaking to (and the person I was replying to wasn't you) is a Westerner who can definitely afford kids if they cut out their Pop figure budget. I don't know your country or what's going on there, but you're effectively being a straw man for 90% of people reading this.

The person who raised this question isn't poor, and most of the anti-natalists in this thread aren't actually poor in comparison to anyone outside the West. In their case, it's a shit excuse.
 
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Ross_Я

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OK, accepted. Then listen to this:

If you happen to have one degenerate ancestor (which you don't - junkies back then died and didn't have kids)
Bold of you to assume that. I'd provide a concrete example - I'm just not sure what do you even mean by "junkie". Like, a lot of animals are known to get high on purpose. Jaguars, for example. And they still survive and have kids. Cubs. Whatever.

Either way, whatever you mean, you are likely wrong, dude.

they're outweighed by the sheer number that fought varieties of impossible odds
Bold of you to assume that, once again. I might come from a generation of notorious slackers. Who knows? No one. Odds are slim, sure, but not impossible, truly not impossible at all.

you're still on the Western luxury of the internet
Ah, please. Cars were once a fiction. Than they were luxury. Nowdays even I managed to afford one. Even though it is currently broken and I cannot afford myself to repair it, but it is hard to call that a luxury in these days. Internet is definitely not a luxury.

It sounds like you want to be depressed and see the downside in life but you're too afraid to actually die, in spite of how you lie to yourself here.
It sounds like you are still talking out of your ass about people on the net.

I don't see a point to continuing discussion with you
That's probably the only thing we can agree upon.

Really, just... enjoy your life, man. If it is that good for you - awesome. Thumbs up. Carry on. But you should definitely stop thinking that your opinion is the only correct one.
 
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I genuinely appreciate you being a degenerate because you're existing here in a free arena I can tell you that you're one. So thanks for being here. I look forward to your shit reply.
Oh, sweetheart, let's cap my masterpiece right here, shall we? It seems I've accidentally triggered your inner drama queen. But hey, kudos to you for tossing around the term "degenerate" like confetti, especially when your main accomplishment today has been crafting epic essays for the vast sea of faceless internet souls. Time for a reality check, my dear! How about you unglue those eyes from the screen, step into the great outdoors, and, I don't know, maybe suck in a lungful of oxygen? Just a thought. Get some fresh air, it might clear up that cyber-attitude of yours. Oh and sweetie, ever considered syncing up your actions with that ideology of yours? Just a thought coherence can be quite the trendsetter, you know.

You're welcome handsome XOXO! :tou5:
 
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Vitnira

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Really, just... enjoy your life, man. If it is that good for you - awesome. Thumbs up. Carry on. But you should definitely stop thinking that your opinion is the only correct one.
Having children is the only correct opinion for a human and your odd detractions can never distract from the fundamental truth of reality.
If you disagree with that, you are mentally ill and poisoning others with your thoughts.

Everything else is midwit "high minded" degeneracy that has gotten society into this drastic birth rate decline. It is still an anti-civilization, anti-human mindset and as a human that enjoys living in civilization I will never accept that propaganda.

Oh, sweetheart, let's cap my masterpiece right here, shall we? It seems I've accidentally triggered your inner drama queen. But hey, kudos to you for tossing around the term "degenerate" like confetti, especially when your main accomplishment today has been crafting epic essays for the vast sea of faceless internet souls. Time for a reality check, my dear! How about you unglue those eyes from the screen, step into the great outdoors, and, I don't know, maybe suck in a lungful of oxygen? Just a thought. Get some fresh air, it might clear up that cyber-attitude of yours. You're welcome handsome! :tou5:
The meme war is fought right here. It's too late for you, but not for someone else. I'm hoping nobody else falls into the sad globohomo propaganda hole you ended up in to get yourself where you are.

Today I've been enjoying playing with my kid, great talks with my husband, walks to my compost pit in between rainfall, and some kickass chicken sandwiches I made myself. I'm enjoying the life you anti-natalistst degens are too blinded by the CIA's glow to ever see. Arguing on the internet is a fun side hobby to me. Thanks for the shit reply, it's a great opportunity to wank off about how great my life is. <3
 
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LSTR-S27916

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Having children is the only correct opinion for a human and your odd detractions can never distract from the fundamental truth of reality.
If you disagree with that, you are mentally ill and poisoning others with your thoughts.
Ad hominem attacks aren't the way to convince people to have kids. If anything it makes it looks like you can't make better arguments for having kids.
 
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LostintheCycle

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I'm just not sure what do you even mean by "junkie"
I think you forgot you are the one who said you might have had a turbo-junkie grandad, so then the question is, what did you mean?
Don't answer that, I'm only yanking your chain
But you should definitely stop thinking that your opinion is the only correct one.
I think we can't have opinions unless we actually believe they are right. Have you ever met a person who is truly unopinionated? They are awful to talk with, because they have zero perspective they want to share. When you ask them a question their response will be exactly what you expect. They never try to make a point of their own, so talking to them about anything interesting generally just leads to a conversation that's dead within a few sentences. I've met multiple people like this, and it pisses me off.
So by all means, we should feel our opinions are correct in some way, not absolutely but to some degree, even if we will be proven wrong on many of them. You should feel you are correct in your opinion, even though I think you are absolutely wrong, however I am not interested in making you believe otherwise. You seem cool otherwise
Now onto the real issue. We only reached page 4 for our monthly shitsling before a mod intervention:ghostWut:
To get the ball rolling, here's the new topic: age of consent for transgender people. GO!
 
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Ashman

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Hmm, this thread is quite a flamy one.
Some guys just shitposted which caused the arguers to get mad.
Well to be fair if you are having a serious argument about something you will get mad if someone jokes about it.
On the question, yes it is. Just because that life contains suffering does not mean that it is suffering itself.
I never really got why people bother so much about ethics, maybe I am just some soulless monkey or are they just dumb?
 
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Ross_Я

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I think you forgot you are the one who said you might have had a turbo-junkie grandad, so then the question is, what did you mean?
Don't answer that, I'm only yanking your chain
Eh, why not? I've meant just that: junkie. But then junkies indeed did survive.

So by all means, we should feel our opinions are correct in some way, not absolutely but to some degree, even if we will be proven wrong on many of them. You should feel you are correct in your opinion, even though I think you are absolutely wrong, however I am not interested in making you believe otherwise. You seem cool otherwise
I mean, that is exactly what I mean. Like, totally agree with you. I do feel my opinion is correct, otherwise I wouldn't even bother defending it that hard. But at the same time I like listening to other people, and, as I've said, I think I am capable of seeing other people's point. Plus, I've noted that if I'd had a better life, I'd likely go for a family with kids and all the jazz - therefore I definitely feel that pretty much everyone in this thread has some points that work under certain circumstances, and therefore correct in some way.

So, all I've wanted to say is that one definitely should not feel absolutely correct, especially in questions like this one. Unopinionated people might be a chore, but do believe that over-self-confident idiots who are 100% sure they are right in everything they think about do not make swell conversation partners either.

And even though I usually do not go into the web with the intention to make people believe something they don't - I've learned of futility of this endeavor long time ago - I myself am actually quite susceptible to other people's opinions. For example, microbyte made some very nice points against my 8 billions, and I've pretty much already admitted than I was at least half-wrong - it is, at the very least, not as simple as I've presented it.
 
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Vitnira

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Ad hominem attacks aren't the way to convince people to have kids. If anything it makes it looks like you can't make better arguments for having kids.
If RisingThumb didn't convince you, nothing was going to anyway. You're going for the classic sealioning tactic because you don't have anything else at this point.

Tl;dr Having kids isn't just ethical, it's necessary for existence, and the question itself is such a stupid first world anti-human thought it's hard to tolerate it. It's like asking if it's ethical to eat anything because plants feel pain. It's like asking if it's ethical to walk because you might step on a bug. If you've gotten through this thread and still are questioning or think it's unethical, you have such a fundamental difference in your perception of reality there's no point in civil discussion - and since the mods have stepped in, there's nothing else to say.
 
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HammerKoopa

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After all the points given, talks of mortality, economics, suffering, the furry mod calling OP a faggot, drugs and bloody Egyptian gods plus 4 pages of a sexually charged flamewar halted by the pony mod. @nakadashi what are your closing thoughts on the matter? Is it or is it not ethical? Will you nip the sack or will you breed some poor fella like a race horse?
 
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Alixie

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You want to have children? Have them. There is nothing unethical with it, it's one of the bases of humanity. Humanity will advance towards a better future somehow, and who are the ones that will make this? Our succesors. Make a family, raise well your sons and daughters, so they can live in the world they deserve.

And if you don't want to have children? Don't have them. There's nothing unethical with it. It's not a "woke globalist whatever you want" invention, it's something that has existed for probably centuries. You can still live a fulfilling life and contribute greatly to humanity if you do so. It's your life, you shouldn't force yourself to do something as difficult as rasing a family just because of some guy's set of ethics and moral rules. You can even achieve something greater.

Is this maybe too simple? Yes. But that's my view. It's as simple as this. There isn't a hidden whatever meaning behind it.

Also @Vitnira, one thing. Don't expect something serious from @Mеченый Яков. The number of truly serious responses from Jack is the same as the numbers of liberals it takes to change a log by bolb. Zero.
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Vitnira

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And if you don't want to have children? Don't have them. There's nothing unethical with it. It's not a "woke globalist whatever you want" invention, it's something that has existed for probably centuries. You can still live a fulfilling life and contribute greatly to humanity if you do so. It's your life, you shouldn't force yourself to do something as difficult as rasing a family just because of some guy's set of ethics and moral rules. You can even achieve something greater.
99% of "childfree" people are using that freedom to achieve greatness to... buy Pop figures, travel, and spend money on child-proxies like cats and dogs. Self-centered pleasures.

Frankly, if you're on Agora you're not going to achieve anything greater than having kids. If you can, you're busy pursuing that thing and not shitposting on the internet. It takes incredible time and focus to do something truly Great.
This isn't to say that people here can't do "good" things, it's more of a statement on how rewarding, fulfilling, legacy-building, and Great parenting is. It blows damn near everything else out of the water and all you have to do is find someone to have sex with and make some budget cuts.

The fall of our modern civilization started with the Boomers' over-fixation on self pleasures as propagandized to them via TV (Network 1976 comments on this). They give nothing to their children. The Boomers were given houses, employment, and a fantastic economy by their forebears and they share none of it. Choosing not to have children is the apotheosis of consumerist selfishness. Why spend on children when you can buy more for yourself? Go on r/childfree - it's all focused on the self. "Look at how much free time I have!" "I just traveled while my sister had to take care of her crotch goblins!" "I just bought a new Gucci purse!" "Children are so annoying!" There's no exceptionalism.

That's half the arguments in this thread too, if you notice. It's not "It's unethical for me to have a child because I'm too busy curing cancer and doing more net good", it's "The cost of living is too high".

The pervasiveness of the belief IS a modern woke globalist do-whatever-you-want invention - look at any mainstream media and they'll be advocating for a childfree lifestyle. Childless people were an exception until recently and they were shamed for their choices.

Also @Vitnira, one thing. Don't expect something serious from @Mеченый Яков. The number of truly serious responses from Jack is the same as the numbers of liberals it takes to change a log by bolb. Zero.
View attachment 84412
What tarnation did I just read
 
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Ross_Я

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After all the points given, talks of mortality, economics, suffering, the furry mod calling OP a faggot, drugs and bloody Egyptian gods plus 4 pages of a sexually charged flamewar halted by the pony mod.
Hey, how come Sisyphus didn't get a mention, while Gods of Ancient Egypt did? I didn't even mention any names.

I think you forgot you are the one who said you might have had a turbo-junkie grandad, so then the question is, what did you mean?
Don't answer that, I'm only yanking your chain
Frankly, junkies got me thinking, so I'm returning to the point. I think what took me off guard is the strict conviction that "junkies didn't exist", while I know that certain species enjoy getting drugged up regularly. Therefore I've assumed that Vitnira took the word "junkie" in the most literal sense, and then, well...

Maybe I've chosen the word poorely after all, but junkies, just as everything else... em... "evolved" over time. I mean, back then you didn't have heroin and whatever else monstrous chemicals are out there, so junkies back then probably couldn't be as braindead as junkies of today by default. So, in this kind of a sense, junkies simply didn't exist. But whatever you call them, you can most definitely sure that a number of people were getting high however they could since the beginning of time. And it is definitely most possible to survive while regularly getting high and being lazy as heck. I... hope I do not need to explain how. Let me just say that humans live small societies since hell knows which times - a lot of monkeys form social bonds, so it is a very basic thing - and there might be multiple reasons for the pack to defend the laziest member. Depending on how ancient times we are talking, some of those ancient junkies could make their way into some prestigious positions like shamans or whatnot, simply because they had the language and the skills describing their trips. I mean, let's, for a moment, just accept that some shamans indeed communicate with the spirtits, while others are just trippin'. There are charlatans among modern religious institutes - there might as well has been some back in the days. So... just like that. Just an example.

@microbyte
I've been thinking about the whole 8 billion thing, and you know, I believe about ten years ago I would've completely agree with you altogether. I remembered that when I've started my YouTube channel, I've thought: with so much users I bound to have some subs. And yet 8 years later I still haven't made a thousand. I guess, things like that is what changed my mind about this topic.

At the same time, I quite often see videos that are very similar to mine which have much more views... And, well, I have to confess that I do undertstand the whole mechanics of the whole stuff, because otherwise I'd probably be using'em, but the thing is: there are definitely things like advertisement and, em... virality of the videos... Like, there are popular topics and unpopular topics... I guess, popularity is the main thing here, no? Like, if the thing is pop, it goes into the mind of many people, and some of those more social people - well, they refuse to go for the non-popular thing, simply because... well, all their friends think it is popular or something... Does it work like that? It definitely should - it something akin to a brand loyalty. When for IPad simple because it is an IPad and all the hip kids gotta have one or something. And, you see, if one dude thinks "I gotta have an IPad" - ah, well, so be it. But if one dude is the last dude in the room without an IPad - the pressure is definitely there.

Just several things from the top of my mind.
 
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99% of "childfree" people are using that freedom to achieve greatness to... buy Pop figures, travel, and spend money on child-proxies like cats and dogs. Self-centered pleasures.

Frankly, if you're on Agora you're not going to achieve anything greater than having kids. If you can, you're busy pursuing that thing and not shitposting on the internet. It takes incredible time and focus to do something truly Great.
This isn't to say that people here can't do "good" things, it's more of a statement on how rewarding, fulfilling, legacy-building, and Great parenting is. It blows damn near everything else out of the water and all you have to do is find someone to have sex with and make some budget cuts.

The fall of our modern civilization started with the Boomers' over-fixation on self pleasures as propagandized to them via TV (Network 1976 comments on this). They give nothing to their children. The Boomers were given houses, employment, and a fantastic economy by their forebears and they share none of it. Choosing not to have children is the apotheosis of consumerist selfishness. Why spend on children when you can buy more for yourself? Go on r/childfree - it's all focused on the self. "Look at how much free time I have!" "I just traveled while my sister had to take care of her crotch goblins!" "I just bought a new Gucci purse!" "Children are so annoying!" There's no exceptionalism.
Gen X and Milennials, if Boomers havent had kids, bigger part of Agora users wouldnt be here
but what baffles me, is that how we lost will, it seems - prev gens would do first-last to prove their points, rather than nowadays, when for every "movement", there is this "capture flag" where Feds (or just enemies?) make another "off-branch", just to make these "newbies" look silly and incopetent - as RisingThumb reposted, "weak men" - and how the comics went, "planting in" lapses of thoughts, to make opposition ("Small Gov Bad!" etc...) look this (idiotic) way - (will post thst imsge i have in mind, if i can find it)
That's half the arguments in this thread too, if you notice. It's not "It's unethical for me to have a child because I'm too busy curing cancer and doing more net good", it's "The cost of living is too high".
well yes! and that is problem how!? you cant are for somebody else if you cant barely cope with care of yourself (and try to run away from it, by overindulging on escapism...)
The pervasiveness of the belief IS a modern woke globalist do-whatever-you-want invention - look at any mainstream media and they'll be advocating for a childfree lifestyle. Childless people were an exception until recently and they were shamed for their choices.
give me a break, that was modern in late 90s- MAINLY 2010s...
it is push from both sides -
Academics come up with SJW shit -> Activists push that forward by gaming court cases (Like Roe v Wade back in the day; I think the case that decided gay marriage was similar.) -> ..., so just to be safe they'll put new SJ rules in place -> Since corps run people's lives now these SJ rules will trickle down to the average person. You can 'opt out' if you want, but life will be difficult if you do, so people don't.
so... and this part of Pushers, versus those who Abide (by Trend, by Ignorance, by Not-Knowing-Better... any reason really than fighting it! >)
my point being, you have to be
1/ desensitized
2/ angry (barking at wrong "tree")
3/ self-hating & -indulgent (1/ + 2/)
4/ crybaby (i know, i am one)
5/ apologist / "but!"-iard (3/ + ... 1/)
6/ amorality (not in the sense of sociopathy, but that) - you get tired (see 1/) - (it is not that simple, "but") "repeated lie becames truth."
(etc. - sorry if i forgot a thing, i write this in heat of passion and frustration over myself being the same...)

to support this process of (i call) Bushification - security over privacy, anti-Snowden canard (seek yourself, all i know is, that there was subculture in 90s-early 2010s, supporting (now-gone) "GVC"-idealism (i call), or rather under name, Cyberpunk) - library, but w/o any control (no registration or time-code, as Archive.org does), with free (founders-keepers) materials, data, knowledge (90s nerdy alt.chat Usernet groups, now archived, like here (e,g,)... - https://groups.google.com/g/alt.folklore.computers/c/wF4CpYbWuuA) - "knowledge should be free"...
What tarnation did I just read
all this is just navel-gazing, Bush-logic. / I get he yapped from 9/11, but ffs, you dont know that "rules make rebels"!? post-9/11 measures... tl;dr, "terrorists won war on terror", same way "the drugs won war on drugs" - it is deliberately made wrong way, so "Bushitteds" (i call them that; those who support Security over Privacy) can play blame-game over whoever they like as (made-) enemy...
(etc. - my head goes on like broken record rn)
not it but still
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The fall of our modern civilization started with the Boomers' over-fixation on self pleasures as propagandized to them via TV (Network 1976 comments on this). They give nothing to their children. The Boomers were given houses, employment, and a fantastic economy by their forebears and they share none of it. Choosing not to have children is the apotheosis of consumerist selfishness. Why spend on children when you can buy more for yourself? Go on r/childfree - it's all focused on the self. "Look at how much free time I have!" "I just traveled while my sister had to take care of her crotch goblins!" "I just bought a new Gucci purse!" "Children are so annoying!" There's no exceptionalism.
1703867865450.png

lapsules
also
https://forum.agoraroad.com/index.php?media/1693655814873-png.23348/ etc
 
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