Moving on from the 'Culture War'

This is a communication I saw on the 'Letterbox' textboard, which I believe is a very cool perspective. Letterbox can be found at:


The thread was titled 'Moving On From the Culture War' and read as such:
Here is something I tend to ponder on, and I wonder about your perspective on it:

I think part of healing the Web after a decade of so of stagnation involves making a break from the current stagnant culture. I tend to tour the 'small web', (for lack of a better term; I hate it when people call it the 'small web or 'indie web', makes it sound like some poncey art movement.), and whenever I do I notice certain reliably recurring themes. Complaining about Big Tech, Bad New Movies, Awful new TV Shows, going on about russia this, US-political-party-I-don't-like that, incel this, nazi that, discord this, etc. Although many of us have moved on from social media, (Or never used it in the first place), we still seem to be circling around the same culture-war carcasses.

The other day I was watching 'Revenge Of The Nerds' with one of my friends. It's a college sex-comedy from 1984. Perhaps you're not a fan of sex comedies, but the point is that it was one of those films that 'would never get made' today. There were lots of outrageously funny, lurid moments, and each time the laughter subsided, my friend would mumble some variation of 'couldn't get that past the censors these days...' If our object was escapism, that is, escapism from stifling modern culture, at least, I think it was rather hampered by this sort of aimlessly defiant anal intrusion of 'Real Life'. I mean, I doubt the makers of that film, back in 1984, were making it with the mindset of, 'yeah, we are SO going to OWN the libs!!!'

People have spoken at length about the various ways Social Media has watered down the Internet and seemingly made everyone at least a little bit dimmer, but I think one less talked about aspect is how it has sort of trained us towards a narrowly-focused, all encompassing hypersensitivity, which leads us, without realizing, to continuously tread the same old ground. The same hot button topics that always coax a reaction. Always fighting the 'culture war'. They may not go 'viral' for it, or see any 'likes', but still they are compelled to write about 'hating coomers' or how 'woke' whatever that new movie is, or 'modern degeneracy'. Fair play to you if these are important topics to you, but at some point I think there is need to shut up about that sort of thing and instead start posting the sort of thing you wish WAS on the internet. I think it's a shame that many people make themselves places where they can do anything, practically anything, and then devote much server space to closely observing the bowel movements and tectonic shifts of the social media world. It is a sort of 'shadow conformity' where we are defined by our defiance to the mainstream, rather than making a clean break from it and actually doing our won thing. I saw the problem summarized well on a certain forum I browse:

"Ultimately the idea is quite simple: why can't you write about a topic without inserting all kinds of special snowflake delusions on one end and "scandal du jour" on the other? By all means go blog about your day. If you want to talk about how seeing zigzag patterns gives you seizures, be my guest. But don't disguise it as an interesting discussion"

"And this applies in the most general way possible because everything is like that, now. I can't checkout a Neocities site about 16-bit computers because it won't actually be about 16-bit computers, it will be about which hair color best matches the Commodore 64's replacement keyboard that came in the mail along with a dragon dildo or something. If it's not about that, it will be all about how much the author hates people who write articles like that, instead of just writing about goddamned 16-bit computers."

I think a good example of how I wish things could be, at random, is something like this article, 'The Dream That Died: The Late 1980s Television Show Reunion Movies' : www.kevinmccorrytv.ca/reunion.html

This article has a lot which I think is refreshing:

-It is about a very niche topic, explained in great detail, such that it becomes a generalized cultural review. The topic is the sort of very specific thing thing you only think to put up once you stop thinking about bending things towards 'the algorithm'. I think a lot of people on the 'indie web' are merely in a phase where they are extending the sort of faux-revolutionary mindset inculcated in them by social media social engineering onto their own personal websites. In fact some of them are exactly refugees with an axe to grind, who set up their own websites as 'outposts', after being banned from numerous social media. This article the sort of thing that basically absent, or very rarely seen, on social media, since it's not hooked to any 'current trend'. It's rarely seen on the 'small web' too, since many people dedicate time to peeking through their blinds at the Social Median's movements.

-It follows no current trends in cultural reviewing (I think because it's an old article). Despite being an article about older series, it does not sink into maudlin nostalgia, or else overexaggerated condemnation of the entertainment under discussion. There are no annoying sort of parenthetical asides, just so that the author can shove their opinion down your throat. Whenever I read a movie review from a site like Vox, for example, there are inevitably all sorts of opinionated, snide marginalia about how this or that celebrity is verboten, or this or that handling of the subject matter is not to the author's liking, which serves no purpose in the review, but serves the purpose of scoring the writer further points with their in-crowd, and pissing off members of the out-crowd.

-It is well researched. Reading thru it you get the impression that the author has seen all the shows under discussion, and has a good grasp of the culture he is making review of. In fact he probably grew up then. I think this also contributes to the impartialty, a lack of familiarity with the subject matter, or proper historical knowledge leads to snide opinion-making and other lazy habits used to fill up a word-count

-It is well-focused and unemotional. It is strange how personal discursive writing can get these days, especially on the internet. Even talk about movies can get very snippy. This article avoids that. The author introduces you to a left-field topic, and walks you through it in great depth, so that you can understand the topic. Its emphasis is on the information with no detour into, as the forum poster said, 'inserting all kinds of special snowflake delusions on one end and "scandal du jour" on the other.'

It's an old article, so of course it wouldn't have the flaws of today, but I this is basically the level of quality I wish Internet writing would return to.
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AnHero

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And here's something else interesting, later on, whilst discussing ways to improve sites, and thinking about various ways of gatekeeping, this came up:

"I don't think it takes any very stringent measures, just a clear rule and moderation willing to enforce it, which will eventually foster a community which respects those rules, and thus engenders a certain 'feel' to the site.

For example there is 'Rule 8' on Heyuri.net, which makes the effort to refuse much of the lame-ass shit that's been clogging up the Net in recent years:

"The following content is not in line with site culture, and will be promptly deleted;

-Wojack & Pepe or any variation thereof
*oomer memes (zoomer, boomer, coomer)
-Buzzwords like "seethe", "cope", "dilate", "janny", "cunny", "based/cringe", shortening words with apostrophe (e.g. 'yuri instead on heyuri) and the like.
-Posts intended to annoy or enrage other users without even having the decency to provide LOLs ー most of "nu-4chan" kind of posts fall under this point.
-"Greentext stories" or any misuse of the quoting feature."

It also says:
"REMEMBER: Heyuri is not about "free speech", and rules may be enforced with a small amount of discretion from the Moderators. You are in no way entitled to anything on this site, and your ability to use it can be taken away without notice, or reason"

The rules themselves tell you quite a lot about what the site is like, and their specific nature and the strident promise of their total enforcement instantly polarises (in a good way.) people into groups of 'those who will enjoy using the site', and 'those who will not enjoy using the site'

Certain outsiders consider the rules above as totally arbitrary, pansy-assed and kind of 'anti-fun', but that's perfect, because this sort of natural disdain easily keeps out the people it's supposed to, who probably do all of the things mentioned, and who probably think something like, 'Bah, who needs 'em! there are better sites I could use anyway!'

The mods on the site enforce these rules quite well, which as I said, led to Heyuri attracting a very distinctive userbase who believes in these rules and self-moderates in cases when aren't present. This has led to a certain indescribable 'private zeitgeist'--basically, I think it's a contender for one of those 'internet underground' places where people discuss unique topics, as mentioned in an earlier post.

I think one issue with our current concept of what we want the web to return to is our concept of 'free speech'. People keep looking for free speech 'platforms'. Social media not only rewired people's interests, it also re-wired people's browsing habits, pushing everyone into seeking 'platforms'=for everything. People are basically waiting around for someone to give them the perfect keys to express themselves, which is not how it used to be. People did not look around for the perfect 'platform' to express themselves on, they just made their own websites, then governed those websites how they saw fit. I mean, no one can really fuck with your freedom of expression on your own damned website, can they?"

and in reply:

'Bah, who needs 'em! there are better sites I could use anyway!'

"I think in a way, this is a totally fine reaction to have. It's in line with what you say in your final paragraph as well. "Free speech" shouldn't mean "do anything you want anywhere you want". The shrinking of the internet to about 4 places that all feel basically the same made people think this. Think of reality, do you really want your cafe or barber shop (or postbox) to have the same atmosphere as your bar or your grocer or your concert venue?
Of course not! That is patently ridiculous.

Applying rules with an end to cultivate a certain atmosphere is critical to actually creating a place that attracts the crowd you want to attract. The only place where total "free speech" should matter is and always was those who have the power to shut down such places, whether that be government, service providers, or payment processors.

This is why I'm a little bit hopeful, as it feels like there are a few cracks appearing in this unified-internet front. We would be much better off if everyone were scattered to the four winds again to find some places that truly suited them. If they can't find them then they ought to be empowered and motivated to build their own. I know that that is an echo of a certain less-than-savory crowd, but in concept it is correct. The current issue being, as we've talked about, cultivating the audience for such things in itself, and evading those that would try and destroy it."
 
"I think in a way, this is a totally fine reaction to have. It's in line with what you say in your final paragraph as well. "Free speech" shouldn't mean "do anything you want anywhere you want". The shrinking of the internet to about 4 places that all feel basically the same made people think this. Think of reality, do you really want your cafe or barber shop (or postbox) to have the same atmosphere as your bar or your grocer or your concert venue?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUezfuy8Qpc

progenator of modern era:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkN83kdgHps&t=1886s&pp=ygUZZmFicmlxdWUgZHUgY29uc2VudGVtZW50IA%3D%3D
 
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The other day I was watching 'Revenge Of The Nerds' with one of my friends. It's a college sex-comedy from 1984. Perhaps you're not a fan of sex comedies, but the point is that it was one of those films that 'would never get made' today. There were lots of outrageously funny, lurid moments, and each time the laughter subsided, my friend would mumble some variation of 'couldn't get that past the censors these days...' If our object was escapism, that is, escapism from stifling modern culture, at least, I think it was rather hampered by this sort of aimlessly defiant anal intrusion of 'Real Life'. I mean, I doubt the makers of that film, back in 1984, were making it with the mindset of, 'yeah, we are SO going to OWN the libs!!!'
this one is schizo-good:

 
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AnHero

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This is very interesting, but I have to wonder what the author thinks of the current crop of Teen Sex Comedies. I mean, things have changed since American Pie. Certainly they have changed since Animal House. Teen Sex Comedies coming out today feature much less voyeurism, 'gray-area' sexual hijinks and are more 'queer'. I wonder if he considers this an improvement or another CIA tactic...?
 

HammerKoopa

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The main reason i left social media and decided to give a crack to make my own website (hosted on neocities cus poorfag) falls in line with that. It comes to a point where you get tired of everyone complaining from all sides, everything being about politics and owning the other side, and even more unrelated topics that makes one shout "I DONT BLOODY CARE" every few posts during a doomscrolling session. Say what you will about the Yesterweb but its initial manifesto inspired me to make my own website with what i want to see and put online, and its been a really freeing experience, exploring their webring showed me what i was looking for in me internet experience that social media could never give me.
In resume the classic cliche line of "Be the change you want to see"

On the topic of gatekeeping and rules for websites, it is a though pill to swallow. For the longest time i had the mindset of "GATEKEEP = BAD", but with time you realize that it can dilute and shift communities and interests you once enjoyed because they get watered down either to appeal to the masses or people being driven away and for the sake of simplicity making things not fun anymore. A small example was when the /bant/ Random - International board was created a few years back on 4chan. /pol/ wanted to "annex" it as a satellite board whatever the fuck that means. Those first few months were incredible fun as we drove out raids and unsavory characters that ruined the vibe of the board. If your shitpost was good and respected what we were trying to have, you were more than welcome. It was great fun and banter... Sadly it didnt last for much longer, but i still treasure those memories. Point is, a general vibe and culture is what makes or breaks a website, and what makes surfing the web interesting as you see and interact these different niches people have carved for themselves. Otherwise you are just left with the same website with a different flavor of UI.

"Welcome to the internet, there are 4 websites and each one is comprised of screenshots of the other 3"
 
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llillilll

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I used to post soo much in alt IB's and here politically but lately my interest in the political side just died. Now i just post silly or about hobbies in Tumblr, here and a small IB that bans people for bad words. I am building my own bubble in anywhere i can right now.
I was in that mindset of "echo chambers are bad and i should listen to all people" but after all the years of listening to literally anyone that had a thought, i just don't care. If their ideals made sense i would change my view 10 times by now. My beliefs might chance in the future but if they do, internet people won't have a effect on it.
I just want to watch shows that i like, play games i like and learn things about my hobbies when i am on the internet.
 
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I was in that mindset of "echo chambers are bad and i should listen to all people" but after all the years of listening to literally anyone that had a thought, i just don't care.
I can relate a lot to this. I used to have this autistic "code of honor" when it comes to online discourse; I would refrain from ever blocking a person. I believed that blocking someone was a "violation of their free speech". Before I became Catholic, I was very autistic about my support for "total free speech", whatever that is.

It was gay as hell, and entirely built on nothing. Eventually, I just got sick of trying to uphold this autistic standard. What was I trying to prove by subjecting myself to the same insipid opinions and lies from all directions, at all times of the day? Who was I trying to impress? I gave up on it of course, because it was exhausting and meaningless. I'm not afraid to block people now, and to no surprise, I haven't "doomscrolled" in years.

If tuning out all of this noise and just focusing on what I actually care about makes me a "safe space snowflake", then so be it. The 'marketplace of ideas' is a joke. Who wants to be shouted at by 'idea merchants' all day anyway?
 
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I think a good example of how I wish things could be, at random, is something like this article, 'The Dream That Died: The Late 1980s Television Show Reunion Movies' : www.kevinmccorrytv.ca/reunion.html
That was a great read, and I know exactly what you're talking about. Reminds me a lot of one of my all time favorite blogposts. It's about a guy sharing his experience of how he got hired by Atari due to his obsession with hacking Centipede. It shares a lot in common with the blog you linked: Donkey Kong and Me
 
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Yabba

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Applying rules with an end to cultivate a certain atmosphere is critical to actually creating a place that attracts the crowd you want to attract. The only place where total "free speech" should matter is and always was those who have the power to shut down such places, whether that be government, service providers, or payment processors.
I believe that this inability for total free speech to thrive on the internet is because it isn't implemented in the most popular sites. This causes people to say specifically nasty and inappropriate things because it's a way of rebelling against the popular mainstream websites. Of course a community can't usually prosper out of this. Yet if we were able to get at least the mainstream sites to have freedom of speech, then it would be easier to implement on less popular sites.
 
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Dolfin

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Great writeup, OP!
I think one issue with our current concept of what we want the web to return to is our concept of 'free speech'. People keep looking for free speech 'platforms'. Social media not only rewired people's interests, it also re-wired people's browsing habits, pushing everyone into seeking 'platforms'=for everything. People are basically waiting around for someone to give them the perfect keys to express themselves, which is not how it used to be. People did not look around for the perfect 'platform' to express themselves on, they just made their own websites, then governed those websites how they saw fit. I mean, no one can really fuck with your freedom of expression on your own damned website, can they?"

[...] Applying rules with an end to cultivate a certain atmosphere is critical to actually creating a place that attracts the crowd you want to attract. The only place where total "free speech" should matter is and always was those who have the power to shut down such places, whether that be government, service providers, or payment processors.
This. In the United States, a citizen's freedom of speech is broadly protected from governmental action against it. It is not protected from the actions of private entities on their own property (social media companies running their sites, forum admins enforcing their rules how they want, "my house my rules," etc.), being ignored, being ridiculed or disagreed with, or not having an adequate platform. This last point is important here: I have the right to publish my thoughts, but I don't have the right to a publisher. Nothing is stopping me from printing zines on my home printer or acquiring a commercial-grade printing press and going at it on a regional scale. A publisher can decide not to print my shit if they want. Nearly every time someone complains about dwindling free speech on the internet, it's in the context of what [social media platform] did this week to suppress them. (I can concede that because true self-hosting is infeasible for most, being beholden to a hosting provider and their terms of use is inevitable. However, these complaints are rarely about the providers.)

That point's just been on my mind lately.
 
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InsufferableCynic

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(I can concede that because true self-hosting is infeasible for most, being beholden to a hosting provider and their terms of use is inevitable. However, these complaints are rarely about the providers.)
Really?

A webserver on any VPS site is ~$6 a month or so. That should be more than enough to run a static website with any number of pages. If you can't afford $6 a month there's probably something wrong with you. Cancel your Netflix subscription and you'll be able to afford it.

And sure "you have to play by their rules", but not really, because your speech is self-contained - all you need from them is the rackspace. There's nothing stopping you hosting elsewhere if you want to. They can stop you hosting with them, but SOMEONE will always take your money, and you aren't tied to them so they can't control you.

Hell, hosting on your home internet on a cheapo old PC can cost literally nothing if you're already paying for internet. You can get old PC's for free.
 

Dolfin

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Really?

A webserver on any VPS site is ~$6 a month or so. That should be more than enough to run a static website with any number of pages. If you can't afford $6 a month there's probably something wrong with you. Cancel your Netflix subscription and you'll be able to afford it.

And sure "you have to play by their rules", but not really, because your speech is self-contained - all you need from them is the rackspace. There's nothing stopping you hosting elsewhere if you want to. They can stop you hosting with them, but SOMEONE will always take your money, and you aren't tied to them so they can't control you.

Hell, hosting on your home internet on a cheapo old PC can cost literally nothing if you're already paying for internet. You can get old PC's for free.
By "true self-hosting" I mean having the physical server at your house (the cheapo old PC). It's possible, but it opens the home network up to security vulnerabilities and probably won't be as reliable as paid hosting. Depending on what it's being used for, your ISP might also take issue with hosting a server on a consumer plan (I believe mine would).
The parenthetical was my realization that you're virtually always dependent on someone to keep the site running, whereas most offline forms of speech have no such dependency.
 
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InsufferableCynic

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By "true self-hosting" I mean having the physical server at your house (the cheapo old PC). It's possible, but it opens the home network up to security vulnerabilities and probably won't be as reliable as paid hosting. Depending on what it's being used for, your ISP might also take issue with hosting a server on a consumer plan (I believe mine would).
The parenthetical was my realization that you're virtually always dependent on someone to keep the site running, whereas most offline forms of speech have no such dependency.
That's true. I thought you were complaining about it being inaccessible due to cost (which is a commonly thrown around myth).

I know it's impossible to escape depencende - and not just with hosting. We don't grow our own food, we don't keep ourselves safe, and we don't make our own houses, so I figured that loose-dependence is the best we will get. Hosting a simple site on a VPS or on a home server is the closest we can realistically get to that online.
 

e2eww

ive always found it pretty crazy that ppl r so adamant abt free speech online becuz obv its a pretty subjective thing as 2 whether or not its important but ive never been able 2 understand why its such a huge deal tbhh i mean, if sum1 gets banned frum the forums i use i see it as a net positive because what is the site if not its community .... if u just let randos come in and mess it up it gets ruined 4 every1 else and it always derails actual conversations
Nearly every time someone complains about dwindling free speech on the internet, it's in the context of what [social media platform] did this week to suppress them.
i see this alot and it actually bothers me so much
like ,, if you have been banned 4 times on one social media platform, maybe its a sign that u should stop
visiting that website .... why would u surround urself with ppl that basically despise u that just doesnt sound enjoyable at all
 

eris

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Great writeup, OP!

This. In the United States, a citizen's freedom of speech is broadly protected from governmental action against it. It is not protected from the actions of private entities on their own property (social media companies running their sites, forum admins enforcing their rules how they want, "my house my rules," etc.), being ignored, being ridiculed or disagreed with, or not having an adequate platform. This last point is important here: I have the right to publish my thoughts, but I don't have the right to a publisher. Nothing is stopping me from printing zines on my home printer or acquiring a commercial-grade printing press and going at it on a regional scale. A publisher can decide not to print my shit if they want. Nearly every time someone complains about dwindling free speech on the internet, it's in the context of what [social media platform] did this week to suppress them. (I can concede that because true self-hosting is infeasible for most, being beholden to a hosting provider and their terms of use is inevitable. However, these complaints are rarely about the providers.)

That point's just been on my mind lately.
I honestly wish this was something that more people would figure out. If people took even a tenth of the energy that they expend crying about being censored and used it to create alternative places the internet might be a much more vibrant place. "If you can't beat them, join them" isn't always the adage to go with - I'm not even particularly censored by big tech stuff (mostly cause I'm not really arsed with having political discussions on the wider web), but I can't beat them and I'm sure as fuck not going to join them. I don't really give a shit if nobody ever sees or reads what I do because the fun is in making it in the first place.

That's the attitude that brought weird old web pages like the one linked earlier in the thread. People only became concerned with getting the maximum number of eyeballs they could on something after the commercialization of the internet, so they could make money off it (whether this is platforms or "influencers" the motivation is the same). Stuff made with or from love (either for the subject matter or the method) is the kind of internet stuff I find that people miss from the old days.
 
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i wonder if Collapse of the West (not Kanye...) will come first, or if Civil War (US?-only) - II will occur first!
someone said "it is easier to imagine the End of the World, that that (end) of Capitalism"... (Mark fisher or so)
 
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Banning generational labels like "Boomer" and "Zoomer" is a bit extreme. These labels have been in use for decades, long before the culture wars came about, as a convenient way of referring to age groups and their distinct interests and attitudes. It's only recently that they've started being used disparagingly to stigmatize a group. "Boomer" actually refers to the "Baby Boom" that lasted from the end of World War II to about 1965, when the soldiers came home and started their own families. It's not a negative term. Boomers embraced it as part of their group identity once upon a time. I myself am proud to be a Generation Xer.

As far as using the Personal Web to complain about the shortcomings and failures of social media, there are a large number of social media users who know there's "something" amiss with social media, but they can't put their finger on it because they don't know of anything but social media. Hence, they're always looking to someone else to build an alternate social media platform that will somehow magically avoid all of the problems with existing platforms. Sometimes it's helpful for those of us who have identified the problems to explain them to others so that we can suggest the most reasonable and practical solutions, such as build your own personal website. Some younger people who don't remember the days when everybody had their own site may not even be aware that such a thing is attainable for the ordinary non-technical person, or they may not recognize the value in terms of expressive and creative freedom that comes from having your own site.

In my opinion, the best way to move on from the culture war is to completely ignore it. Don't pay attention to either wokeists or anti-wokeists. The pundits who always complain about wokeism are as much a part of the problem as are the wokeists themselves because they're keeping it in the spotlight. Exercise a little self-control and refrain from reacting to every little thing you see online. Be an adult and hit the Back button on that noise. There's a saying that's been around for as long as the World Wide Web has existed: "Don't feed the trolls." Yes, it actually works. When attention whores on both sides stop getting the attention they crave, they'll fizzle out.

Nevertheless, I love shitposting, and I'll talk shit about anybody, at any time, for any or no reason. I don't usually do it in a malicious or spiteful vein unless I'm calling out a shitlord or behavior that needs to be called out. See Brent Weinstein's classic YouTube video "Gangster Party Line" for an example of how much fun talking shit can be.
 

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