Pondering a 2nd U.S. "Civil War" - Speculating contributing factors, potential effects, issues with the narrative, and misc thoughts

[Dr. MacGutsy]

Was this always a thing, or there was some shift, swap?

If someone is aligning themselves with a single party or ideology they'll die for whoever "their guy" is at the time, or at least say they will.

 

[Regal]

Idk how Canada is protrayed in American media

It is funny because we are way more likely to get news about stuff happening in Europe, Middle East, etc than news about Canada. From what I can tell nobody gives a shit about Canadian drama.

 

[Some_porcupine]

Canadian drama

hm, this might be just European thing then XD

 

[InsufferableCynic]

I think that more and more people are included in an effort by corpo types to make money via creating some semblance of community with a low barrier to entry (doesn't get more basic than sexuality and gender) then making it taboo within that community not to buy merchandise based of your sexuality/gender from the previously mentioned corpo types. Maybe I'm way off there. I don't know.

To me it sounds more like they are appealing to people's narcissism in order to sell a product.

It's especially easy to appeal to people who feel downtrodden.

Your family won't accept you? We will! Now buy our product!

It's cynical moneymaking, nothing more.

 

[imacop]

The average republican here would die for the government

lol no

Hope it happens, i hate America.

America A number 1! As fucked up as we are, we still have a very democratic government compared to the rest of the world (excluding Northern and Western Europe)

Not government directly but do you know any republican on this site that wouldn't die for a rich white man?

Blue-collar conservatives don't like the rich either, but they think the rich white man is an east/west-coast elitist liberal trying to force them to choke down on socialism and wokeness

 

[imacop]

Idk how Canada is protrayed in American media,

It isn't

Sometimes people will look at actors on IMDB and be surprised that an actor is Canadian (or will tell you anytime that comedian/actor is mentioned). Also, this year they're the place where wildfires are sending smoke into our cities and posing health risks for the first time in our air quality. Otherwise Canada is just our weird, folksy, misguided neighbor to the north.

 

[Pangolin]

Hope it happens, i hate America.

I talk openly about America's problems, but I don't want to see it become damaged beyond the point of repair. Its akin to burning down your own house to be temporarily warm. Sure the fire might temporarily satisfy your bloodlust and make you feel happy that the other team is destroyed, but its a temporary victory and a permanent loss.

I think for one, the founding fathers were mistaken in trusting representational democracy and its something that should be corrected. With a very high threshold of course 90% approval for something to pass and 70% participation. The politicians do too much shit while you have your back turned and oops they abridged some right or other. Oops we accidentally snuck in legislation while everyone was reading this massive stack of legislation.

Yeah I am no longer fooled by the whole pretend democracy. I don't even agree with the whole idea of electing someone to office just to watch them vote against your interests and then you have to wait for their re-election term to come up just to get them out of there and replace them with another just as weaselly individual.

Yeah let me go ahead and pick which member of the local political party I want to speak for me. Once they are done voting the way their campaign financers want, they will make room for what I want.

 

[InsufferableCynic]

I think that more and more people are included in an effort by corpo types to make money via creating some semblance of community with a low barrier to entry (doesn't get more basic than sexuality and gender) then making it taboo within that community not to buy merchandise based of your sexuality/gender from the previously mentioned corpo types. Maybe I'm way off there. I don't know.

By buying into the identity politics grift, corpo types are faced with a dilemma and an ever worsening situation that needs to be constantly resolved.

There's good money to be made appealing to victims (either real or fake, since it's possible to convince anyone they are a victim of something), because victims are mentally vulnerable and open to manipulation. If they feel everyone is against them except you, they will feel a rapport, which will make them far more likely to buy your cheap crap (like your rainbow iphone case), and even better, they will overpay for it because they feel supported, which has intangible value to consumers.

However, there's a problem. Identity Politics inherently appeals to minorities, which limits your marketplace. Even if you can sell your rainbow iphone case for double what your competition can sell their generic ones for, you're still only appealing to ~10-15% of the population at most, plus a few strong supporters. Eventually, your minority market will be filled.

The standard tactic is to move on to a different minority. Pride month is over? That's okay, our Black History Month merch will be in soon! This is naturally a good fit because as political situations arise (maybe someone gets gay bashed, maybe some people riot over a shooting), you can simply bring out the merchandise to suit whatever minority was affected, and watch the money roll in. You can profit off everyone while not actually supporting anyone directly or tangibly.

However, constantly changing your designs to appeal to whatever the current victimisation trend is requires a lot of upfront costs. New machining, paying for new art, etc etc. Even worse, every time you engage with a new minority, you risk saying the wrong thing and alienating them, which will backfire spectacularly and could permanently set people against your business. At the same time, by constantly switching support, you attract the ire of anti-woke conservatives, who will also hate your constant politicisation. Even some level-headed liberals will see through your constant virtue signalling and the tactic will start to lose it's effectiveness. Wouldn't it be nicer if there was a more effective way to capture more and more people without changing anything, essentially gaining support in the background without the risk?

This is the genius of corpos that appeal to the ever-expanding gay community. Why make something new when you can keep selling the same rainbow iphone case to more and more people. You don't want to be too inclusive all at once, though, otherwise people won't feel victimised anymore - if you try and suddenly classify 3/4 of the population as part of the LGBTQIABCD+ community, you won't get very far. Instead, you need to slowly introduce more and more "victims" so you can get them all to pay the premium rate. Even better, you can get lots of positive press and loyal diehard fans because it looks like you're getting more and more "gay friendly" and inclusive year by year, whereas going all-in in one go will only get you positive publicity and praise once before everyone moves onto the next thing.

This also benefits the LGBTQIAETC+ community as well, because they can maintain permanent victim status and remain relevant in the public eye. Had they just remained LGBT, the whole thing would have fizzled out pretty quickly once gay marriage and trans name-changing rights became pretty much standard over the western world (which has happened over the last decade). Now, they can continue to find more and more niche issues to talk about, or things that aren't related to sexuality at all (like abortion rights) and maintain relevance by adapting their image.

As far as I'm concerned, if you weren't at Stonewall, and you haven't had to actually clash with law enforcement to facilitate your basic rights, you don't get a say. I am too young to have been at Stonewall, so I guess that makes me hypocritical, but I am at least a member of the group that was majority affected by much of the anti-gay sentiment of the time. Lesbians hardly had issues, and trans people weren't even at Stonewall. Most of the people speaking for the community now are over-privileged spoilt middle-class hacks who want to feel special. All the people fighting for their rights have left (including me) because there's no point in community anymore - we already have everything we want.

 

[llillilll]

lol no

It would take one 9/11 like event for them to die for a car manufacturer. For a government 3thousand people is nothing for a corporations interest, every single one of them proved this.

America A number 1! As fucked up as we are, we still have a very democratic government compared to the rest of the world (excluding Northern and Western Europe)

Democracies don't fund dictators. You people should start understanding that America funding dictators in middle east isn't a meme, Fethullah Gulen(former tyrant in Turkey but they had a disagreement with Erdogan and tried a coup that failed) lives in Pennsylvania. ISIS is still going in Syria, Iran turned into Sharia and can't improve, Taliban is building their sharia state and Laos still didn't recover from operation barrel roll(in witch USA used more bombs than all bombs combined in ww2, btw).

Blue-collar conservatives don't like the rich either, but they think the rich white man is an east/west-coast elitist liberal trying to force them to choke down on socialism and wokeness

They hate the slightly rich, the people above them financially but they can still see them in the streets. Conservatives don't hate the actual rich people.

 

[Pangolin]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRgRz3nSG7o


They're gonna do this to clear the debt

 

[imacop]

It would take one 9/11 like event for them to die for a car manufacturer. For a government 3thousand people is nothing for a corporations interest, every single one of them proved this.

They hate the slightly rich, the people above them financially but they can still see them in the streets. Conservatives don't hate the actual rich people.

Your view of American conservatives is mistaken. Conservatives were pissed when the big three domestic automakers were bailed out in 2008. Even during 9/11, conservatives weren't rah-rah-government—just the military. These two are not seen as the same thing in this country. The conservative mantra since Reagan has been that government is always detrimental to individual freedom and should be mitigated when the opportunity arises.

Democracies don't fund dictators. You people should start understanding that America funding dictators in middle east isn't a meme, Fethullah Gulen(former tyrant in Turkey but they had a disagreement with Erdogan and tried a coup that failed) lives in Pennsylvania. ISIS is still going in Syria, Iran turned into Sharia and can't improve, Taliban is building their sharia state and Laos still didn't recover from operation barrel roll(in witch USA used more bombs than all bombs combined in ww2, btw).

Operating a representational government of the people and funding foreign dictators are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, our country has committed many atrocities across the world in the name of freedom. However, as a representational democracy (not a direct democracy), these decisions are made by those that generally base their political platforms on domestic issues, whom we elect (or at least half of us do, per individual election). Of course there is the usual saber-rattling when it serves the purpose of getting people riled up (see the 2003 US-led invasion of Iraq), but you'll find many liberals and conservatives alike agreeing that our expenditures on foreign bases are wasteful and need to be drawn back. For liberals, it's about restoring sovereignty of these nations; for conservatives, it's about putting America First™.

 

[【Ｏｂｓｉｄｉａｎ Ｐｉｌｇｒｉｍ】パラダイス・]

Bruh, It would be first war started with America wich doesn't take place in randoom other country in more than 100 years

 

[imacop]

I think for one, the founding fathers were mistaken in trusting representational democracy and its something that should be corrected. With a very high threshold of course 90% approval for something to pass and 70% participation. The politicians do too much shit while you have your back turned and oops they abridged some right or other. Oops we accidentally snuck in legislation while everyone was reading this massive stack of legislation.

What would you replace representational democracy with? Direct democracy (read: mob rule) certainly isn't a better option, though I wouldn't mind the occasional referendum.

Congress has a hard enough time passing laws as it is—with our political climate (the duopoly of competing corporate parties), requiring of 90% would ensure nothing ever got done. No ObamaCare, no infrastructure bill—just tax cuts for corps. The Freedom Caucus has one thing right, and that's transparency in bills brought before the house. You're right that there's lots of things that get stuffed into these bills behind closed doors, but I'm not sure how to fix that. Maybe have a maximum page limit for bills? Or a finite amount of amendments? I'm clueless enough about legislation that they might already have these in place.

 

[Pangolin]

What would you replace representational democracy with? Direct democracy (read: mob rule) certainly isn't a better option, though I wouldn't mind the occasional referendum.

Congress has a hard enough time passing laws as it is—with our political climate (the duopoly of competing corporate parties), requiring of 90% would ensure nothing ever got done. No ObamaCare, no infrastructure bill—just tax cuts for corps. The Freedom Caucus has one thing right, and that's transparency in bills brought before the house. You're right that there's lots of things that get stuffed into these bills behind closed doors, but I'm not sure how to fix that. Maybe have a maximum page limit for bills? Or a finite amount of amendments? I'm clueless enough about legislation that they might already have these in place.

Congress has a hard time passing laws that benefit you and I. But laws to benefit the wealthy who fund their campaigns always seem to sail through no problem. Money for extra war in Ukraine -> no problem. Tax cuts for the wealthy and temporary tax cuts for the 99%. No problem as well. Bills that have essentially 100% support like that daylight savings bill languish in obscurity. In summary the system only works if you are wealthy and can buy Congress.

Money to fix our nations lead pipes That can wait. Regulation to fix the medical system, broken immigration system, legal system. Nah these can all wait. The military is the first priority.

What real options do you have to demand the government fix itself? Voting in 4-6 years. Yeah right nobody cares about current thing in 4-6 years. You can't remove them because there's no legal way to do so.

Mob rule or 99% rule? This is why I set the threshold so high at 70% participation with 90% of the vote for any legislation. It ensures that only things with mass support happen while also protecting minorities from the majority. With power close to home at the city/county level.

Representative democracy is a failure unless you are wealthy and that I think is the true reason why it'll never go away.

 

[imacop]

Mob rule or 99% rule? This is why I set the threshold so high at 70% participation with 90% of the vote for any legislation. It ensures that only things with mass support happen while also protecting minorities from the majority. With power close to home at the city/county level.

Representative democracy is a failure unless you are wealthy and that I think is the true reason why it'll never go away.

Ah, I misunderstood earlier. The 90% threshold is for public referendums, not congress. Got it.

I agree with everything you've said!

 

[Pangolin]

Ah, I misunderstood earlier. The 90% threshold is for public referendums, not congress. Got it.

I agree with everything you've said!

Also it would eliminate the whole elderly politician problem, and the lobbyist problem, and remove a lot of sources of corruption.

Of course it all hinges on people not being stupid and easily manipulated. Maybe some sort of trial period on legislation. One year to try it out and then another vote to keep it.

 

[imacop]

Also it would eliminate the whole elderly politician problem, and the lobbyist problem, and remove a lot of sources of corruption.

Of course it all hinges on people not being stupid and easily manipulated. Maybe some sort of trial period on legislation. One year to try it out and then another vote to keep it.

Brexit passed with a very narrow margin, but the 90% marker might be a good "check" on idiocy.

 

[Pangolin]

Brexit passed with a very narrow margin, but the 90% marker might be a good "check" on idiocy.

Looks like brexit met the first criteria of enough participation but fell very short on the leave at 51% when I would've wanted 90%. Hilariously Brexiteers are now having to find visas and permissions to remain in the various European countries they have settled in. In a strange twist of luck, most of these policies were spearheaded by the UK.

 

[SolidStateSurvivor]

The Texas border situation is getting a little spicy. Seems like more and more governors are pledging state troopers/national guardsmen to the scene (every red state with the exception of Vermont.)

I have also seen rumors of volunteer militias and an organized trucker's convoy making their way down as well.

Biden's in a tough spot, he could've maybe gotten away with seizing control/federalizing Texas's forces, but if he tries doing this with over a dozen other state's forces he's going to unleash a can of worms. If Biden doesn't intend to backdown then I really don't know what's next.

I'm still unsure if this is all just a show or if there's potential for something here, but it'll be interesting to watch playout.

 

[Fairykang]

Good time to bump thread. Insurrection back on the menu.