So to reiterate do you think Consciousness exist?

[Pin-zou]

I had posted a status and it kinda blew up, do you think consciousness as understood by Cartesian dualist exist? I personally do not but I want to hear what others have to say on the matter.

 

[no_chill]

This is just a re iteration of buddhism (the original form of) and of Hermeticism.

The body is a vessel that houses the soul. Soul does exist without a body. As apparent in Astral Projection or Astral-Exiting, whatever term you are satisfied with.

 

[Pin-zou]

@no_chill Buddhist have a different definition of the self than Descartes

 

[stonehead]

I'm confident that consciousness exists. I failed to find the paper after a quick search, but some respected philosopher who's name I forgot called it something along the lines of "The ultimate delusion". Say consciousness is an illusion. Who is falling for this illusion? Me? I thought we just established that I myself am an illusion. How could an illusion be subject of an illusion?

I might disagree with a hard dualist's interpretation of consciousness as something wholly separated from physical reality. We don't understand consciousness, and we currently don't understand all of the rules of our physical reality either. I don't see how we could confidently assert that consciousness couldn't possibly arise from material causes then, considering that we don't fully understand either.

The dualist view of conscious is less intuitive to me than a materialist one. (Not the eliminative materialist view that consciousness isn't real, the normal materialist one that it arises from physical causes). It's hard to imagine that material effects (my body moving) could be caused by immaterial causes (my consciousness deciding to move my arm). But I wouldn't say that it's completely outside of the realm of possibility.

 

[Pin-zou]

I'm confident that consciousness exists. I failed to find the paper after a quick search, but some respected philosopher who's name I forgot called it something along the lines of "The ultimate delusion". Say consciousness is an illusion. Who is falling for this illusion? Me? I thought we just established that I myself am an illusion. How could an illusion be subject of an illusion?

I might disagree with a hard dualist's interpretation of consciousness as something wholly separated from physical reality. We don't understand consciousness, and we currently don't understand all of the rules of our physical reality either. I don't see how we could confidently assert that consciousness couldn't possibly arise from material causes then, considering that we don't fully understand either.

The dualist view of conscious is less intuitive to me than a materialist one. (Not the eliminative materialist view that consciousness isn't real, the normal materialist one that it arises from physical causes). It's hard to imagine that material effects (my body moving) could be caused by immaterial causes (my consciousness deciding to move my arm). But I wouldn't say that it's completely outside of the realm of possibility.

My view is actually close, but I don't think consciousness is anything but an accident of composite beings (Body + Soul) and the very idea of a mind which interprets a subjects reality just seems to me to be an illusion of grammar than a real concept. A lot of it seems to be from an inability to express subjective experience in language.

 

[tcp]

Consciousness exists as something which is non-material. It doesn't have a physical origin and I believe the material processes of the brain aren't responsible for producing qualia. We have very limited knowledge about how the brain works to begin with. Consciousness is a hard problem, meaning that with our current understanding of science we don't have the tools to explain it even though it's one of the most important questions facing mankind.

 

[bnuungus]

hits blunt
consciousness is like
exhales
quantum energy, man

 

[Pin-zou]

Consciousness exists as something which is non-material. It doesn't have a physical origin and I believe the material processes of the brain aren't responsible for producing qualia. We have very limited knowledge about how the brain works to begin with. Consciousness is a hard problem, meaning that with our current understanding of science we don't have the tools to explain it even though it's one of the most important questions facing mankind.

consciousness is a pretty simple problem to figure out if you consider how we talk about experience :^)

 

[tcp]

consciousness is a pretty simple problem to figure out if you consider how we talk about experience :^)

Except it's not at all. We don't have the framework or tools to sufficiently describe it in any capacity. Your consciousness could operate in ways that are radically different from someone else's entirely and how would you communicate that? Consciousness is a very intricate and detailed process and not something that can be defined currently

 

[Pin-zou]

Except it's not at all. We don't have the framework or tools to sufficiently describe it in any capacity. Your consciousness could operate in ways that are radically different from someone else's entirely and how would you communicate that? Consciousness is a very intricate and detailed process and not something that can be currently defined.

Have you ever thought about why it cannot be talked about efficiently rather than assuming difficulty in talking about it arises from some kind of ineffable complexity? More often than not most arguments I've seen for Mind-Body Dualism are just assumptions about sense and thought that don't hold up to scrutiny, and Cartesian Skepticism makes no sense. It seems like people assume the topic just paused at Descartes and Locke and never developed into a proper debate that can be had and has been had

 

[tcp]

Have you ever thought about why it cannot be talked about efficiently rather than assuming difficulty in talking about it arises from some kind of ineffable complexity?

Because it does? It's one of the most advanced systems possibly ever as it relates to life and is the only thing that makes you aware of your own existence. What are you saying here?

 

[Pin-zou]

Because it does? It's one of the most advanced systems possibly ever as it relates to life and is the only thing that makes you aware of your own existence. What are you saying here?

None of this is logically sound, consciousness didn't even exist as a "model" of anything until the Early Modern Period and hardly any argument made by people who believe in mind-body dualism is a genuine proposition. The question "Is there a consciousness which exist in a duality with the body?" is just the question "Is private language possible?" and the answer is no

 

[tcp]

None of this is logically sound, consciousness didn't even exist as a "model" of anything until the Early Modern Period and hardly any argument made by people who believe in mind-body dualism is a genuine proposition. The question "Is there a consciousness which exist in a duality with the body?" is just the question "Is private language possible?" and the answer is no

I don't even know what you are trying to say here.

 

[Pin-zou]

I don't even know what you are trying to say here.

Consider the question "Is is possible to have language for concepts which can only be understood by its user exclusively" because the question is what Cartesianism can be reduced to

 

[RustedZaku]

I heard a lot about Integrated Information Theory about how consciousness is a natural phenomenon and field in the universe as gravity, weak and strong nuclear forces, and electromagnetism. I personally believe consciousness, even though we still have some ways to properly understand it, exists as we are constantly experiencing it each and every day, and to just throw in the towel by saying it's just an illusion seems reductive and only seeks to satisfy those who feel like they hold the answers to everything.

 

[Pin-zou]

I heard a lot about Integrated Information Theory about how consciousness is a natural phenomenon and field in the universe as gravity, weak and strong nuclear forces, and electromagnetism. I personally believe consciousness, even though we still have some ways to properly understand it, exists as we are constantly experiencing it each and every day, and to just throw in the towel by saying it's just an illusion seems reductive and only seeks to satisfy those who feel like they hold the answers to everything.

I think you're seeing the question in the wrong way, the ability to experience (A faculty of intellect) and having "I" be a self referential proper name are two very different things, consciousness can be an illusion and nothing would actually change about your experience. Think about the idea of self consciousness, you can say it in two ways "I am conscious of myself" and "I am conscious of my-self" I don't deny the existence of conscious experience, I deny the idea you're using "I" as a referent to some kind of "self" that you can only refer to and is the source of all your experience.

 

[RustedZaku]

I think you're seeing the question in the wrong way, the ability to experience (A faculty of intellect) and having "I" be a self referential proper name are two very different things, consciousness can be an illusion and nothing would actually change about your experience. Think about the idea of self consciousness, you can say it in two ways "I am conscious of myself" and "I am conscious of my-self" I don't deny the existence of conscious experience, I deny the idea you're using "I" as a referent to some kind of "self" that you can only refer to and is the source of all your experience.

So what you're trying to say is that the ability to process stimuli and sensory experiences is a completely different phenomenon than being able to be aware of your own existence? Fair enough I suppose, but even in the animal world, you could say that despite lacking the same level of intelligence as you and I, many animals still display behaviors and emotions not entirely inseparable from humans.

 

[Pin-zou]

So what you're trying to say is that the ability to process stimuli and sensory experiences is a completely different phenomenon than being able to be aware of your own existence? Fair enough I suppose, but even in the animal world, you could say that despite lacking the same level of intelligence as you and I, many animals still display behaviors and emotions not entirely inseparable from humans.

Intellect and intelligence aren't the same thing, but I'm going as far as to say a lot of so called statements on "qualia" are only meaningful because they have an intersubjectively verifiable criteria of use