The mirror recognition test for animals doesnt reflect the reality of any animals self awareness.

[sicadelicbearkang]

Many animals predominant sense isn't sight. Dogs for example, recognize others(and themselves) by scent. They arent fine tuned into sight as we are.

If someone asked you to recognize your own scent to prove youre self aware, would you be able to do so?

The mirror test is just another sign of mankind letting their ego get in the way of truth, assuming everything is the same for other creatures as it is for humans. Noone considered their pov/brain differences enough to consider they could be self aware, just in a different way, due to vastly different perception. The more i think about the mirror test, and how its considered THE test for self awareness in animals, really makes me wonder how deep of thinkers most people really are, actually accepting those results as the truth.

We demean animals into being lesser creatures to such a degree out of ignorance and stupidity, or a subconscious need to prove we are something special, having evolved to be something completely separate from the animal kingdom, or to justify our position of superiority. A lot of animals are very self aware and they just express it and show it in ways that most humans cant comprehend, or are too self absorbed to want to comprehend.

Has anyone else considered/ looked into this?

 

[shinobu]

Here's a study testing just that

 

[sicadelicbearkang]

Here's a study testing just tha

glad to see im not the only one who this has occured to. amazing to me this wasnt bigger news though, and that the mirror recognition tests stays the gold standard in testing an animals self awareness nevertheless.

 

[shae]

I think about this a lot. the self-recognition thing is so exclusive to humans and vanity and ego and we fail to realize that, if anything, self-recognition just draws us inward and isolates us. I think part of the reason why animals are so free is not lack of intelligence, but their perception of other creatures. humans rely so heavily on ranking other humans and other animals by which one is smartest, most attractive, etc that it becomes more significant than it needs to be.

One specific thing I find very interesting about the relationship between humans and animals is our opinion on pigeons. originally they were bred to be companion animals and of course were trained to deliver messages. when humans decided they were obsolete, they were abandoned and now they are considered pests, simply because they are no longer useful to us. however, pigeons are some of the most intelligent birds out there. A few years back some pigeons were trained to be able to detect cancer in radiology images and overall they have a memory comparable to that of elephants. they seem to be more aware of the world around them than many of us are.

 

[shinobu]

I saw that study about the smell test mentioned on a documentary about animal intelligence once. However, I don't know how good these tests actually are, since there may not be much of a connection between "being intelligent" and "having a sense of identity that allows an animal to differentiate itself from others". In the end, we humans can only talk to ourselves, and our experiences are purely human. So we tend to anthropomorphize everything from animals to computers, since it's impossible for us to do otherwise. Even in the case of dogs, just knowing that they experience the world by smell isn't actually the same as being able to experience it ourselves, so we say they see by smelling, since our main way of experiencing the world is sight.

 

[sicadelicbearkang]

I think about this a lot. the self-recognition thing is so exclusive to humans and vanity and ego and we fail to realize that, if anything, self-recognition just draws us inward and isolates us. I think part of the reason why animals are so free is not lack of intelligence, but their perception of other creatures. humans rely so heavily on ranking other humans and other animals by which one is smartest, most attractive, etc that it becomes more significant than it needs to be.

One specific thing I find very interesting about the relationship between humans and animals is our opinion on pigeons. originally they were bred to be companion animals and of course were trained to deliver messages. when humans decided they were obsolete, they were abandoned and now they are considered pests, simply because they are no longer useful to us. however, pigeons are some of the most intelligent birds out there. A few years back some pigeons were trained to be able to detect cancer in radiology images and overall they have a memory comparable to that of elephants. they seem to be more aware of the world around them than many of us are.

like youd said, awareness doesnt come from hyper-fixation on certain sensory things; actually, ive found i was most aware when i wasnt hyper-fixated on any one thing. I was doing well in college classes, making straight As without trying, while i was being prescribed ativan, bc it kept my mind clear from focusing on anything other than the moment (even though benzos also lower your awareness; a trade off for sure.) when my prescription ran out i started having trouble again, with grades, socializing, and any other aspects of life, bc i had gone back to being able to slip into fixating on small things. These days i try better to just keep my mind clear with yoga, meditation etc. and its better this way albeit less sure to work all the time without having to keep up with it, but it was interesting for me to see what seemed to be proof that thinking very much actually seems to dumb you down and make you less aware of reality and your surroundings, even though society seems to reward and congratulate the opposite.

 

[sicadelicbearkang]

since it's impossible for us to do otherwise

without enough abstract thought, this is true. Which many people have toruble with abstract thought. Ive wondered a lot why AI robots are being made to look like humans, when it could be made to appear as -anything- while we have no particular reason to have to make them look human. and what it says about the human consciousness, that most ppl truly only have the desire/capability to communicate with something that reminds them of themselves.

 

[sicadelicbearkang]

without enough abstract thought, this is true. Which many people have toruble with abstract thought. Ive wondered a lot why AI robots are being made to look like humans, when it could be made to appear as -anything- while we have no particular reason to have to make them look human. and what it says about the human consciousness, that most ppl truly only have the desire/capability to communicate with something that reminds them of themselves.

although, we wont ever be able to truly know what their perception is like, even though we can get far closer to it than we are today. of course though, this also carries over to human life. many people expect other people think/feel the same as they do, and want the same things they do out of life, either out of self absorption or laziness, before considering they could have a vastly different perception than themselves.

 

[Jessica3cho雪血⊜青意]

I didn't know about the mirrortest or that it was considered any form of "defacto" confirmation for self-awareness.

Disappointing to see such a ridiculous sentiment. Humans are always attempting to force others to fit into their mold, yet I never see scientists suggest we "learn to evolve our auditory range so we can perceive and reciprocate the humanly inaudible tones cats make to communicate". Humans force their will upon nature, animals, and even themselves, and then call it a "pursuit of truth". I appreciate all the info being shared in this thread.

 

[pronoundisrespecter]

I hate the mirror test because how is an animal supposed to understand what a mirror is. They don't have mirrors made by dogs or whatever. It's like claiming an isolated tribe is stupid because they can't figure out how to use a microwave.

 

[WALFTEAM]

the mirror test is the standard because dolphins, apes and i think some of the smarter birds pass it, and since those animals are already smart in other ways it lends credence to the mirror test. that more animals pass it when you make it about smell is most definitely interesting