The Zettelkasten Thread

bnuungus

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This thread is about the Zettelkasten Method of note taking. It was designed by a German Social Scientist by the name of Niklas Luhmann as a system that would act as a second brain so that at any moment if you had a little idea, you could write it down on a little notecard (a zettel) and link it to other thoughts that you had that are relevant. Apparently he published 50 books as well as around 600 articles in his lifetime along with having around 150 unfinished manuscripts at the time of his death. I will be pulling heavily from this website to write this post.

In essence, a Zettelkasten is
a personal tool for thinking and writing. It has hypertextual features to make a web of thought possible. The difference to other systems is that you create a web of thoughts instead of notes of arbitrary size and form, and emphasize connection, not a collection.
The important part of what makes a zettelkasten work is the connections between concepts and ideas that you create. Each zettel is supposed to be only one single thought. You then tag that zettel with a unique identifier and then hyperlink it to other zettels that relate to other concepts along the same line of thought. Pulling from the website, this has numerous benefits to it:
  1. We can improve the connectivity of our thoughts. The hyper-textual nature of the Zettelkasten enables us to connect ideas. These connections make new insights possible. Insights don't happen in a vacuum. They are the result of making new (unexpected) connections.
  2. We can be more productive. The Zettelkasten Method streamlines our workflow by giving clear guidelines on what to do. This, in turn, decreases friction. It is quite common to enter a stage of flow which further increases productivity. I even allocate two days per week to make Zettelkasten work my priority and allow Zettelkasten flow to happen.
  3. We stop wasting our efforts. Even if you don't use any of your notes for a project you're working on at the moment, you prepare the knowledge for future projects. At the very least, you improve the depth of processing information from that topic.
  4. We can tackle more complex problems. It is very difficult to keep all the balls in the air if you juggle complex problems. The Zettelkasten Method allows you to concentrate on a small part of the problem and after that take a step back and look at it with a panorama vision.
  5. Normal note-taking will create a bloated mess over time. The Zettelkasten on the other hand will scale itself automatically to the size of the problem you are tackling. This is what Luhmann talked about when he wrote about "internal growth" (I translated it into "organic growth") in his manual.
  6. The Zettelkasten Method will make your writing easier, more coherent, smoother and more convincing. One of the main problems in writing and thinking is our limited capacity to follow one line of thought for a long period of time. Just think of meditation. It is even difficult to focus on a simple thing like breathing for a couple of minutes. Imagine how difficult it is to think about one issue for weeks and months to write a thesis. The Zettelkasten will hold your thoughts alive and help you to hold onto them.
Instead of creating uncoordinated notes inside of arbitrary categories that you create before you start working, you start from the other end and write down thoughts that will slowly create their own "categories" as you link more and more together. I'm currently in the process of trying to set up a Zettelkasten for keeping track of all my projects at work and accurately documenting changes and the flow goes something like this: I create zettels that are named as the job number and a short description of the project, I create some other zettels that deal with certain aspects to the project, and then I have notes referencing the project as well that are tagged simply as the date and time that I wrote them. I'm still very new to this and there are some things about my setup that are lacking that I'm trying to figure out how to fix so I'm going to link this very helpful video that can explain better than I can.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6ySG7xYgjY


At the end of the day though, there's only so much that internet guides can help you create one. Everyone's brain is different and therefore ever Zettelkasten is different but that's part of the fun. It's a system that not only helps you remember what's been going on in your head, but also helps you to understand how your brain thinks about things.

A zettelkasten can be done using only notecards and a filing system but that will end up taking up a lot of space as well as quite a bit of time doing menial "office work" organization. There are plenty of pieces of software that support making a zettelkasten but there are two that I've looked into that seem pretty good. The one that I use for mine is done online at https://zenkit.com/en/hypernotes/. The main benefit to this one is that it's cloud based which allows me to access it from both my work computer and my home computer without having to use Github to make sure that the files are the same. Another good one to look into is the one that is featured in the video above https://obsidian.md/. Obsidian is nice because because it's stored locally, it's open source, and it has a thriving community that makes different plugins that allow you to fully customize you experience. Functionally, both hypernotes and obsidian operate fairly similarly so choosing one over the other is mainly about whether you prefer customization or the ability to easily access your Zettelkasten across multiple devices. Working with a Zettelkasten is a fun endeavor and I think it's worth it to give it a shot
 
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RisingThumb

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My opinion about Zettelkasten and similar note taking methods is they teach memorisation of facts. This is useful for prussian-style teaching as used in schools, but this method of schooling is terribly outdated and doesn't teach people to critically think or make meaningful subtle connections and pattern-matching. In short, I find it a waste of time.
  1. We can improve the connectivity of our thoughts. The hyper-textual nature of the Zettelkasten enables us to connect ideas. These connections make new insights possible. Insights don't happen in a vacuum. They are the result of making new (unexpected) connections.
Yes, and maybe Zettelkasten works for this, but I think it works in a suboptimal way. Personally, I think a better way is to write an essay on some topic, and completely exhaust every possible avenue you have of talking about it and relating it to other topics. Once you get into history, philosophy, philology, politics, psychology and culture you'll find this goes a long way. This requires critically thinking about the connections too, and making them reasonable and well founded connections.
  1. We can be more productive. The Zettelkasten Method streamlines our workflow by giving clear guidelines on what to do. This, in turn, decreases friction. It is quite common to enter a stage of flow which further increases productivity. I even allocate two days per week to make Zettelkasten work my priority and allow Zettelkasten flow to happen.
I disagree, Zettelkasten only produces notes, and possibly connections. It doesn't necessarily increase productivity on works(maybe it does for larger groups where knowledge sharing is needed, I.E. programming documentation). It may be a streamlined workflow for producing notes, but it's a harmful workflow that hampers streamlining for any other work. Another point on productivity, often productivity goes with the intent of 100% utilisation of the mind and/or body, but this is harmful, as you don't have slack to turn your focus to other matters of importance.
  1. We stop wasting our efforts. Even if you don't use any of your notes for a project you're working on at the moment, you prepare the knowledge for future projects. At the very least, you improve the depth of processing information from that topic.
The process of creating notes is usually sufficient for learning them. I have rarely turned to notes as prepared knowledge. If you need to process information, composing essays on those topics is more than sufficient, as it trains connecting knowledge, ideas and insights, critical thinking and is in a format that can be published and consumed by others for rebuttals and other ideas to counter them.
  1. We can tackle more complex problems. It is very difficult to keep all the balls in the air if you juggle complex problems. The Zettelkasten Method allows you to concentrate on a small part of the problem and after that take a step back and look at it with a panorama vision.
THIS DOES NOT FOLLOW. See the point about how Zettelkastan actively harms a streamlined workflow. Anything outside of the problem detracts from the problem, harms the ability to enter flow state and harms the ability to understand how everything is connected. This is especially true of programming which involves complex problems all the time. The only notes I ever make for programming, is where I can find documentation(because the client I work for has their documentation scattered all over the place... *grumble*).
focus.jpg

  1. Normal note-taking will create a bloated mess over time. The Zettelkasten on the other hand will scale itself automatically to the size of the problem you are tackling. This is what Luhmann talked about when he wrote about "internal growth" (I translated it into "organic growth") in his manual.
Agreed, but consider another question. Are your notes necessary? They may help with memorising the topic, and they may serve an ego of "I know all these facts", and the size of things is often a point of great pride(see poor programmers who create huge codebases with many unnecessary lines of code). What I do with a lot of my notes, is actually bin them as they have served the purpose of learning them. Additionally, I only note what is actually worthwhile noting in lectures(not very much), and pay attention to what the lecturer actually has to say. Not everything is worthwhile noting, and those notes you make aren't always worthwhile keeping forever.
  1. The Zettelkasten Method will make your writing easier, more coherent, smoother and more convincing. One of the main problems in writing and thinking is our limited capacity to follow one line of thought for a long period of time. Just think of meditation. It is even difficult to focus on a simple thing like breathing for a couple of minutes. Imagine how difficult it is to think about one issue for weeks and months to write a thesis. The Zettelkasten will hold your thoughts alive and help you to hold onto them.
I do not believe it will make your writing easier or more coherent or more convincing. An argument is convincing by using the ethos, logos and pathos all in the correct ways- most arguments ignoring the ethos and pathos and relying purely on logos. Does it logically follow? Even when this is front and center, a lot of non-sequiturs emerge. Additionally, an argument needn't be convincing so much as it needs to be expressed. A convincing argument underlies an agenda to change hearts and minds- are you trying to change hearts and minds?

On the topic of coherent, smooth writing... that stems from a man's grasp over his English, his ability to connect the core points of his thesis, his grasp over grammar and a sufficient vocabulary that can engagingly sweeten the topic to be appealing. No matter how logically correct a thesis may be, if it is boring, it will usually be a life-denying grim thesis that serves to pollute the world with more dreary information.

What I have found is that focus isn't hard. Our limited ability to follow one line of thought might be problematic, so I'll scribble it down to return to it later when writing a thesis. The hard part is one of DISCIPLINE, and entering the FLOW state. This requires sitting my ass down, removing distractions, killing my brain's Id, and letting myself go wild with writing. Naturally a lot of what will come out will be crap, but let me tell you that 90% of everything is crap. Honestly, sturgeon's law is optimistic, way more than 90% of everything is crap. Following this, I wrote my University thesis in about a week(the project it was related too, took much longer though).

What I find note taking to be useful for, is creative endeavours of briefly trying out different ideas and seeing if they work or don't. This is in the same vein as keeping a journal of how I feel, and meditating on what's happening and what needs improvement, and what in my life works and what doesn't work. In my case, organised note-taking fails to bring order to my thoughts, so I prefer to embrace the improvisational chaos and do things in a disorderly fashion. It's more entertaining too!
 
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bnuungus

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See I love this because it's a very clear example of two different types of brains working in different ways. For some people, I have no doubt that a Zettelkasten system is completely worthless but when I learned about it I was instantly intrigued. Funnily enough you only responded to quotes that I pulled directly from the Zettelkasten website because I was lazy but I will respond to ones that more fully emulate my thoughts on the system.

My opinion about Zettelkasten and similar note taking methods is they teach memorisation of facts. This is useful for prussian-style teaching as used in schools, but this method of schooling is terribly outdated and doesn't teach people to critically think or make meaningful subtle connections and pattern-matching. In short, I find it a waste of time.
I thought the whole point of this is that you don't have to memorize facts. You write them down when you think of them and then link them to what made you think that. The system is then used to look those thoughts up at a later date along with the context of why you came up with that thought.

Yes, and maybe Zettelkasten works for this, but I think it works in a suboptimal way. Personally, I think a better way is to write an essay on some topic, and completely exhaust every possible avenue you have of talking about it and relating it to other topics. Once you get into history, philosophy, philology, politics, psychology and culture you'll find this goes a long way. This requires critically thinking about the connections too, and making them reasonable and well founded connections.
I agree with the essay thing because simply re-reading an essay that you wrote will remind you of different thoughts that you had while writing that essay. And while the system was designed for writing I personally use it to keep track of what I do at work (I'm an engineer). It was a bit of a challenge adapting it to work with what I do but I think it's similar to the challenge of starting a Zettelkasten in the first place. Also writing essays on literally every thought collection you have seems kind of insane to me.

I disagree, Zettelkasten only produces notes, and possibly connections. It doesn't necessarily increase productivity on works(maybe it does for larger groups where knowledge sharing is needed, I.E. programming documentation). It may be a streamlined workflow for producing notes, but it's a harmful workflow that hampers streamlining for any other work. Another point on productivity, often productivity goes with the intent of 100% utilisation of the mind and/or body, but this is harmful, as you don't have slack to turn your focus to other matters of importance.
I mean you can say what you want about productivity but it's very clear that it worked well for the guy who made it due to the sheer number of things he was able to write in his lifetime. Then again he was a crazy workaholic and that probably factors in there somehow. Idk I think it works for some people but hampers others.

The process of creating notes is usually sufficient for learning them. I have rarely turned to notes as prepared knowledge. If you need to process information, composing essays on those topics is more than sufficient, as it trains connecting knowledge, ideas and insights, critical thinking and is in a format that can be published and consumed by others for rebuttals and other ideas to counter them.
This is very clearly a case of our two brains not processing things the same way. I have so much going on in my brain that I forget specifics very easily and writing things down is necessary for me to remember them. Problem is I usually don't write them down in a way that gives me any context whatsoever to why I wrote it so those notes become useless. Hence, the system works well for me. I do agree with the essay approach being a more fleshed out way to connect knowledge but I ain't about to write fricken essays on all my work projects. Also isn't the system meant for helping you write essays? I think this is another case of some people would benefit from the system and others would be hampered by it.

Agreed, but consider another question. Are your notes necessary? They may help with memorising the topic, and they may serve an ego of "I know all these facts", and the size of things is often a point of great pride(see poor programmers who create huge codebases with many unnecessary lines of code). What I do with a lot of my notes, is actually bin them as they have served the purpose of learning them. Additionally, I only note what is actually worthwhile noting in lectures(not very much), and pay attention to what the lecturer actually has to say. Not everything is worthwhile noting, and those notes you make aren't always worthwhile keeping forever.
Isn't the system geared towards not binning your notes but rather keeping them in an organized way that follows the way you were thinking in the moment you wrote it? Yeah you might not revisit a certain note ever in your life but I think it's cool to keep it around. I guess I have a bit of a hoarder's tendency lol.

I do not believe it will make your writing easier or more coherent or more convincing. An argument is convincing by using the ethos, logos and pathos all in the correct ways- most arguments ignoring the ethos and pathos and relying purely on logos. Does it logically follow? Even when this is front and center, a lot of non-sequiturs emerge. Additionally, an argument needn't be convincing so much as it needs to be expressed. A convincing argument underlies an agenda to change hearts and minds- are you trying to change hearts and minds?
I agree with this point. I disagree with the website on this and I should've read it more critically before putting it in the thread.

What I have found is that focus isn't hard. Our limited ability to follow one line of thought might be problematic, so I'll scribble it down to return to it later when writing a thesis. The hard part is one of DISCIPLINE, and entering the FLOW state. This requires sitting my ass down, removing distractions, killing my brain's Id, and letting myself go wild with writing. Naturally a lot of what will come out will be crap, but let me tell you that 90% of everything is crap. Honestly, sturgeon's law is optimistic, way more than 90% of everything is crap. Following this, I wrote my University thesis in about a week(the project it was related too, took much longer though).
BRUH. Yeah I disagree with this. I don't know if I have ADHD or what but it's extremely hard for me to enter a flow state. And it's not from a lack of trying either. I'll be in a good groove and then a though pops into my head which distracts me from what I'm doing and that will divert me to make sure that that thing happens but then it leads me to something else and then before I know it I've lost my flow for what I was doing earlier. The Zettelkasten system is nice bc when this happens I can just write it down, link it up to the appropriate spot, and then not have to worry about it because I'll know that the context for that thought was saved. And with enough practice I can do this fast enough to not lose my flow for what I was doing originally. The only other solution for eliminating distracting thoughts from my brain is drinking whiskey and that's just not sustainable lol.

(because the client I work for has their documentation scattered all over the place... *grumble*).
Mood. I can't tell you the number of times that I ask for something from a client and they tell me that they can't find it even though I can literally only get it through them. I guess that's what happens when you do work for big corporations.

So my whole point is that this system isn't for everyone, but it does work wonders for some people and if you haven't ever heard of it before and you want to improve your workflow maybe give it a try.
 
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