Theseus' Game | When a game become heavily modified through modding, does it remain the same game or does it become anew?

[Hadrian Hardrada Cicero]

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A brief introduction​

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Some time ago when I was having a conversation with a friend of mine on discord in regard to the current situation with Blockland, he mentioned while in a rant regarding said situation, a subject known as "Theseus' Ship" to which he mentions ROBLOX and Minecraft, a game I'll be bringing up later, being prime examples of it. Theseus' Ship is a thought experiment that asks if an object is still the same even after centuries of that object being constantly repaired and the original parts long gone as a result of being replaced so much?

The name is based on the mythical founder of Athens known as Theseus who after saving the children of Athens from the King of Crete, Minos, sailed his ship to the city of Delos, where future descendants of those children will take a pilgrimage to city with the boat over generations spanning a millennia and because of this, they would make constant repairs and replace parts of the ship to keep it anew but at that point most philosophers ask: is it still the same ship?

This is where the main subject comes into hand and one that I feel many would like to discuss on so let's quickly get to it!

Modding in Video Games​

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Since the days of DOOM when John Carmack released the game's source code for everyone to use to their heart's content, Video Game modifications or "mods"/"modding" has been a staple of video gaming.

A mod can be used to enhance a person's gaming experience or can be used to change up the atmosphere, mood, or even rhythm to the game itself. Most of them being completely different level designs by mod-developers themselves, to additional weapons, characters, and even original stories in it's entirely. Yet, with all of these modifications to the original game and even experience, a big looming, shadow that covers modding all together that it becomes harder to ignore over time as modifications causes make the game even more complex than the original premise of it. That shadow in question is none other than the Ship of Theseus' itself. For you see that even yes modding can be quite an experience, you can stack and heavily modify the game to the player's heart content but at some point, one must ask: At what point does the modification become too much and the game stops being the original game itself? Where does line between the original, vanilla game, end and an entirely different game start?

This was a thought I had during the conversation with another friend on discord when I discovered a mod for the game Minecraft, a game I mentioned above that has been evolving from its original feel and gameplay due the amounts of update the game had received since it's development back in 2009, that many veterans of the game itself feel that Minecraft at some point, stopped being Minecraft entirely. Now this thread only focuses on the modding aspect of Minecraft as discussion about vanilla Minecraft alone is a discussion that's already saturated and I wish not to focus into that much. Moving on.

This mod, which coupled a video that show cased a couple of mods (Which I'll explain them in detail), and some additional mods was the reason why I decided to make this thread and why it made wonder how far could modding can go until it reaches a threshold in the game's original identity in it's entirely. For the purpose of OP, I'll be focusing on Minecraft as a starting point, everyone will be allowed to share this feeling and show other games and their mods as well if they feel that heavily amount of modification may have reached that threshold in question as well and with that, let us begin.

Radical Mods of Minecraft that pushes the envelope between the original and being an entirely different game.​

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No Cubes Mod - Removes the cubic generation in the terrain generator and replaces them for an extremely smooth and natural terrain​

Perhaps to start off strong, Minecraft is a 3d Cubic-based voxel sandbox, the terrain and material you use to build are comprised of a cubic, 16 x 16 x 16, block that the player can use to manipulate and build structures with.

This has been the case since the game's release. Related or not however, Minecraft wasn't originally meant to be cubic and in fact, it was originally called "Rubydung" a prototype that many people in the Minecraft community, know of and it originally used some form of voxel generation where the terrain wasn't entirely cubic as we come to know of.

This mod in particular more or less removes all of the cube in the terrain's generation and instead makes smooth and natural looking terrain but it makes me think what would an official version of Rubydung would've looked like. It's because of this that the mod starts to push Minecraft into foreign territory, but we have yet to reach Minecraft's threshold.

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Dynamic Trees Mod - Replaces the structure of trees from being a collection of various wooden blocks to more natural yet cubic still looking trees.​

Now we're starting to push it with Minecraft's blocky art style... If one would call it that. Trees in the original vanilla game depend per biome but they were essentially a tall column that the player can chop down to then later use the wooden blocks into planks which are crucial to building to a survival.

With this mod, trees or no longer just a mere column with leaves on the top, they're instead a more "organic" and dynamic natural structure each procedurally generated through algorithms meaning that each tree has a unique set of math that effect the number branches and appearance of that tree in particular and yes, chopping down a branch or the base of tree will cause it fall naturally and you'll have to chop individual pieces to get the wooden blocks.

While pertaining to the art style of Minecraft I feel like this mod, added with the No Cubes mod, can already make Minecraft feel like a different game to some people and given that now there are various mod that changes the lighting, clouds, and add ambience even, it further exemplifies the feeling of Minecraft becoming an entirely different game through modding, again Theseus' Ship continues to eclipse our little blocky game but we haven't passed the threshold of Minecraft itself.

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Terralith Mod - A radical world terrain generator that not only affects the terrain but biomes as well to make it closer to our world's geography.​

Minecraft has gone through several iterations of its terrain generator since the days of indev, each of which, are iconic of their own to various people depending how long they have played Minecraft for. With the release of beta 1.8 which changed update the terrain generator to look closer to our world, and following additional updates that again changes how terrain is generated, there had been mods that not only affect the terrain generator alone but also how biomes are created. In comes the Terralith Mod, a mod that not only revamps how terrain is generated but brings in a heavy number of biomes whilst brushing up base game biomes.

True to its name, the point of the mod is to create a world just like real world itself creating a geography much familiar to our dear home, Earth. Which, when combined with the two mods above, we start to reach the gray boundary of when Minecraft stops being Minecraft and instead starts becoming a different game entirely. It is still very much like Minecraft in the sense that you can build, craft, explore, and survive along with building to your hearts content in creative mode however is it even Minecraft at this point? The various mods that have been created tend to either enhance or add additional gameplay loop to the game but none of which ever try to breach the threshold of Minecraft itself, but let's go a little deeper.

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Physics Mod basic and pro - Applies real world physics to the game with pro allowing waters to form waves.​

I think my computer is starting to burn up now as this mod applies a form of physics to the game with "pro" (I assume it's some premium thing by the developers of the mod) the most notable of which is that oceans have legitimate waves and flows more fluently like in real life. Such other features are that is a legitimate cloth physics, so banners and capes are affected, and blocks that are broken will shatter into pieces when chopped or mined.
It is because of the fact that proper waves are in the game, that I wish we had something to go along with seafaring to other regions instead of using a dinky boat... Oh wait.

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Small Ships Mod - The Age of Sailing comes to Minecraft by introducing larger and proper ships to the game.​

When the release 1.13 Aquatics Update Launched it brough a necessary overhaul to oceans which were previously barren and void of life, now consists of very much living and thriving underwater ecosystem. It also introduced new structures such as underwater city ruins and sunken ships both of which consisted of loot for players to seek out. This including a bunch of new materials to build and treasure maps to find even more goodies.
People have built ships prior to this update yet non, without the use of command blocks and maybe some mods, never managed to make them function like actual boat. This mod however changes that.

Small Ships adds much larger, and proper sailing ships for the player to explore and combined with the physics pro mod above, can make seafaring an exciting voyage when exploring the world. It also adds Cannons.
So now you can engage in legitimate naval battles against other players in something like a PVP server and so forth. As of now, these mods I listed are now starting to reach the threshold of what we would normally call "Minecraft" as the game is starting to look less of our familiar blocky survival sandbox game that was first developed back in 2009 by Notch and Mojan. As our ship reaches the ancient of city of Delos, our pilgrimage at an end, the question remains; is it still the same game?

[TO BE CONTINUNED ON ANOTHER POST BECAUSE APPARENTLY, I REACHED THE FUCKING MAX CHARACTER LIMIT HOLY FUCKING AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA]

 

[Hadrian Hardrada Cicero]

[CONTINUING FROM OP]

Honorable Mentions​

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While not likely affecting Minecraft in any form that it makes it feel like it stops being what is, I think it's worth mentioning some mods that do affect the overall atmosphere of the game.

Towns and Towers Mod - Revamps NPC Villages giving them different types of architecture and structures.​

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2EfWjoF9W8
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A fun little mod that revamps to various villages that were introduced back in the Village and Pillage update of 1.14 this makes the world of Minecraft feel a bit more alive as it introduces Civilization into the game. There have been various mods that before and after the introduction of villages in beta 1.8 and NPC Villagers in beta 1.9 each just changing up how villager behaves or replaces them entirely with character using the same model as the player to varying degrees of success.

Create Mod - Adding automation/factories to Minecraft.​

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR8W-f9YhYA

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Since the introduction of Redstone, automation has been something of a phenomenon if you knew your knowledge of Redstone and how to wire to them up which led to various amazing creations all done thank to Redstone wiring. This also included the creations of various player structures that are crucial to certain servers such as 2b2t.org such as AFK farms and many others but the idea of automation lead to the creation of mods where you can basically create a legitimate factory and one such notable mod of that caliber would have to the Create mod here. Looking this mod looks unreal seeing placed blocks being moved around and such.

Various Gun Mods - Guns in Minecraft, 'nuff said.​

I don't think this needs explanation. People have developed various gun mods for Minecraft and at this point even mentioning this is kind of just cheating but whatever.

Mo Creatures Mod - Adds additional mobs some of which managed to get into the actual game alone.​

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RawyC9-WmE
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Mo Creatures is a mod that is still in development even longer after some of its animals managed to be made into the official release of Minecraft itself. It adds various species of animals that helps to make the environment much more alive and vibrant.

The Aether Mod - The most influential and crucial mod ever made in Minecraft.​

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjfkYsFpx34

(a very famous video that doesn't need explaining. Very nostalgic)​

A gaming changing mod that adds an additional dimension teaming with various materials and bosses to fight. This mod is very famous for one as it left a major impact in the game alone and in fact was how The End came to be introducing Minecraft's very first boss fight: The Ender Dragon. Later on, The End would later be given a revamp in the 1.9 update with the creation of End Cities and the introduction of shields and elytras to despite the ever-controversial subject that was the Combat Update. Again, all thanks to the Aether Mod alone.

The various shader mods - Adds dynamic lighting, environmental ambience, and realistic skies/clouds.​

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8xX-fHujb4
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I don't need to explain about this, but these mods changed up how Minecraft look visual by adding legitimate dynamic lighting and such to the game and like the Aether's mod, it too has left an impact on the game... and on people's computers, including high-end ones if they didn't manage to properly install Optifine unless, they actually preferred to make their computer into a legitimate bomb.

With all these mods I've showcased and gave honorable mentions to, at the beginning of the journey, I had mention that video game mods exist to enhance the experience of play to the player, and that as time went on, more mods were created for players to play with them to their hearts content, including mix and mashing them all together to see what sticks and what causes their games to hard crash.

The questions remain however unanswered and as we reach our destination, the city of Delos, we finally reach and pass the threshold of Minecraft and the reason why I wanted to make this thread because while all of them continue to retain Minecraft's art style to a degree. Only mod manages to breach that threshold when stacked with the three mods I mentioned above and makes me asks: Is this even Minecraft all to begin with?

Passing the threshold, is it even Minecraft at this point?​

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A few nights back I when I was watching some video showcasing Minecraft mods, I saw one that I brought attention to a friend and what triggered that conversation I mentioned a while, which made me ask if this is even Minecraft to begin with due to the level of detail and changes in how players build structures. Behold! The mod that breaks the threshold of Minecraft's identity as a game.

The Cocricot Mod - The end all be all mod of all mods on Minecraft.​

The Crocricot Mod is a mod that began its development way back in 2016, developed by a Japanese Minecraft player (and likely a group of them) and it completely revamps everything we know about Minecraft. Some of you might be confused and will say "This is it? THIS is what made you to make this thread? Surely you might be exaggerating a bit here aren't you? What does this mod do that makes you think breaches the threshold of Minecraft?" Well sit down and listen because this mod revamps the way players build structures in the game by adding legitimate architectural pieces found in real life and not only that, but it also adds proper furniture to the game.

The mod allows the player to build homes and other structures in a variety of real-world architecture styles mostly pertaining styles sometime before at least World War II from what I can tell. Not only that, but you're also given a selection of actual functioning furniture. Now there have been mods that previously include such things, but this come packaged with the various architecture blocks used into building these amazingly beautiful builds. It also comes package with its own texture pack from what I can tell that gives extra details not found anywhere in mods or texture packs for that matter. The developers had a sharp eye for both architecture design, exterior and interior decoration and the fact that it is still in development as we speak meaning more things will be added to the mod itself.

This is it; we have finally breached the threshold and shattered Minecraft's game identity to the ground. Is this even Minecraft at this point? When you consider that game modifications are made to enhance the experience of a game, they manage to retain the identity or the style of the original game alone. Yet, as we've seen in many games besides Minecraft, with enough heavy modding, is it even the same original game we've been playing the entire time or is it anew? Heavily modding the game, which for example with Minecraft, after considering and combining the Radical Mods above with reshade/shaders and with the Crocricot Mod, a person with a broad view may look at these mods together and think "Oh, it's some game that's trying to compete against Minecraft" until they take another look at the game's UI and be shocked that it's not.

As of late, the Crocricot Mod only has these materials in creative mode as there is no means to craft these in the base survival game... FOR NOW as they're making plans and likely developing to add crafting ingredients to create these blocks in the first place for survival so by all means, for now, Minecraft is still that block-based voxel sandbox that was originally developed by Notch back in 2009 and is currently being developed by Mojang post-Notch. That is until, the mod is able to successfully create the crafting ingredients needed to craft these blocks and furniture. So when that happens, the question remains unanswered, is this even Minecraft at this point?

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Conclusion and closing thoughts.​

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Holy shit this was a big ass post for me to write, I never expected to work on this for two whole nights now. My brain is all p0oped out now. I'm going to go back into drawing after this post.

Now obviously many of you will point that the game may not be the original vanilla base game of which it was developed, but rather that the engine would remain the same and I agree. There are many examples
of the game being an entirely different game after heavy modding yet still use the same engine the original game uses and in fact, Game engines is part of the modification process. Goldsrc being a great example of that being that it was a modified version of the Quake Engine itself which, thanks again to John Carmack, for releasing the source code of the engine for people to use.

This was personally a thought experiment that true to the original thought experiment of Theseus Ship, that I thought was worth having discussions about as this not only makes me think how mods tick but how it's an extension of game design itself. Seeing what sticks and what doesn't and what causes your computer to either brick, crash, or... explode is what I find most fascinating, and this isn't exclusive to Minecraft only. I used Minecraft as a base to explain this thought experiment while featuring the mods I mentioned above at the beginning. Like I said, I am sure there are plenty of people here on Agora Roads who also might have thought about modifications taken to the extreme of sort and would like to provide their own thoughts to the thread itself and it doesn't have to be Minecraft of course.

So, I thank thee for having to read all of this autistic sperg of mine and I bid thee, adieu! Have fun discussing, I'm going to bed now...

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(EDIT: I forgot to add the images to the second post agh)

 

[Brapuccino]

I don't think there is a single mod for any game that replaces the original code entirely, or else they might as well just code their own game, so technically they all are still the same game.

 

[Eden]

Imagine not playing Minetest.

 

[Pangolin]

Imagine not playing Minetest.

I am surprised microsoft hasn't splattered minetest all over the wall given their acquisition of minecraft.


I think it both is and is not the ship because there are two perspectives, maybe more, that are readily apparent. You could take the software approach. Microsoft has extensively re-written the minecraft software, but there is likely a lot of original code base unless they really started from scratch and re-wrote it. I guess then the acquisition was less of the code itself, and more of securing exclusivity and a killer app for the hololens device. Speaking of which, where's my cheap hololens device Microsoft? Are they planning on ceding another sector of the computer market to a mobile manufacturer? (Do people really unironically use MacBooks?)

If we take the software approach then its likely still going to retain original components to the original game and thus wont qualify as to qualify it should have all original components steadily replaced while still being minecraft. But if we take the player perspective, then it definitely does qualify when you install enough mods to completely supplant the original looks and mechanics of the game to where someone would have a difficult time seeing them as the same game. I think with the `The Crocicot` mod it definitely qualifies since I was not aware of it being the same game.

I think overall, if a game has freely available source code like Minetest, then it would be far easier for it to qualify under the ship test. And if you weren't told that Minetest was Minecraft it certainly would've fooled enough people. I guess that brings the question of are two identical items really the same thing or are they different into play.

I dont think most apps are ever really re-written fully enough to qualify. But we can lower the bar by adding compilers and interpreters to the mix since they obviously wouldn't produce the same code after enough time. It would be logically the same, but would have various optimizations, simplifications, and compile time data so as to render the final binary product quite different, yet still logically and fundamentally the same as the original plus a few upgrades and removals, and additions.

In more exciting news, I definitely want to play The Crocicot mod as it looks really fun but I only want to play in survival.

Good post 8/8

 

[dorgon]

As an avid Europa Universalis IV player, there's one mod that comes to my mind which is related to this thread and it is MEIOU and Taxes (3.0). MEIOU&T is a complete overhaul mod which adds a bunch of new mechanics into the game for a supposedly more accurate experience of the medieval times the world is set in. Compared to the vanilla game, the mod emphasizes relationship with estates, economic policy, populations, and religious minorities a whole lot more than the normal game, and the new mechanics make the game a lot more dynamic and it completely changes how you'd play the game.

But mods like these have their own downsides, which is their own weight. Adding completely new mechanics to the game is one thing, but this mod has so much new mechanics REPLACING the vanilla ones that many players who have even played hundreds, possibly thousands, of EU4 still have no idea what the hell is going on inside the MEIOU&T gameplay. They would have to "relearn" playing the game with the same mod in place and while the mod obviously doesn't replace the "original code" (as @Brapuccino said), mods like these still feel completely alien to the player especially without a proper tutorial or guide for the new mechanics. For example in the vanilla game, estates normally provide some benefits and/or some drawbacks based on their loyalty and influence. You can give them privileges to either strengthen their buffs or revoke them (the estate will lose loyalty to you) if you think they have too much influence. You can also seize their land or sell them land. But in the mod, the "privilege system" is reworked into some sort of "legal system" where they have privileges by default and you have to meet certain requirements to change the privileges, and the consequences, good or bad, of revoking or adding privileges isn't just some changed modifiers, it can also block other reforms you make and potentially ruin your nation if you don't do things right.

While that is indeed more historically accurate to real life, some players might not see it as entertaining and fun and want a more simpler experience where they can just enjoy mechanics that are easier to grasp and manage.

Of course, comparing EU4 overhauls to minecraft overhauls isn't comparing apples to apples, but I believe my point still stands. Even in minecraft, there's some huge modpacks which completely change the game like RLcraft (this one has 185 separate mods!), and does more than add in some new mobs and biomes, they completely change how you play the game (like in RLcraft, you also have to worry about thirst, parts of your body, and body temperature as well). Some players like the extra layer of difficulty, some players don't and prefer a more simple playstyle, but mods like MEIOU&T or RLcraft change things so much you're wondering if you're even playing the game you'd normally enjoy anymore.

 

[mydadiscar]

i aint got nothing to say im just bumping this thread cuz its good

 

[Ross_Я]

i aint got nothing to say im just bumping this thread cuz its good

Nah.

Theseus' Ship is a thought experiment that asks if an object is still the same even after centuries of that object being constantly repaired and the original parts long gone as a result of being replaced so much?​

Obviously not. This is honestly the dumbest philosphical question I've ever encountered. See: if you'll put an l4 engine into a 1969 Dodge Charger, some people will say it is still a Charger, because well, it has a body of a Charger. But I'll say you've ruined a muscle car, because a V-shaped engine is a heart and soul of american muscle. And even then some people would call me generous - a lot of purists wouldn't settle for anything but an american V8. Even a Buick V6 can cause some raised eyebrows from that crowd.
So, the question is kind of subjective. The line can be drawn in different places for different people, but everyone has one in the end of the day. Only a contrarian would try to prove that this is still a 1990's Chevrolet Caprice:

My lines are kind of strict, and that's why I stick to light modifications.
Now, you can ask: what if you try to keep the parts as close to the original as possible? Well, the answer is that it is a hit or miss. Video games have perfect example in remakes. Once again, it is subjective: some people seem to like'em, some people seem to hate them. I, personally, dislike them, but this time precisely because in my eyes simply upscaling the textures doesn't change much, if anything at all, and it is just a lazy money grab. But there are people who will tell you that upscaling the textures ruins the original. And there are also people who will love it for whatever reason.
Movies have even more concrete stance in case of remakes. No one ever will tell you that 2000's Gone In 60 Seconds and 1974's Gone In 60 Seconds are the same thing.

Et cetera, et cetera. Theseus' Ship only seems like a hard question because it attempts to generalize a very broad area with one answer. Or so it seems to me. And from this point of view it is wrong from the start. Theseus' Ship is subjective and depends on the medium, but the final answer is always: no, the ship is not the same.

 

[spronket]

Minecraft is an interesting example because the way that game tends to be modded verges on using the game as an engine in and of itself.
Total conversion mods like Battlefield 1942's Galactic Conquest and the like might as well be considered entirely new games as they share little in common with the original. The same can probably be said for a lot of Doom WADs, since so many go beyond the scope of just "hey, here's a few new levels".