Transhumanism: Technology, Human Experience, and Gender Identity

[h00]

There will always be a topic on Transgenderism and a desire to discuss it, but to limit the scope of a left vs right and who gets to use my bathroom or compete in my sports limits the discussion. There are more implications than just bathrooms and sports, and often in discourse of this topic these implications are not known or acknowledged by all participating parties, leading to a lot of emotionally charged posting because how come this person doesn't understand (the implications / that this really doesn't affect them). People are getting in the weeds of the edge-cases about bathroom usage and participation in sports and weirdness of drag story-time, and missing the larger picture.

In my view transgenderism is an expression of the Pharmaceutical and Cosmetic Surgery industries pursuit of more money. Transgenders are mostly young, white, and upper-middle class. They have money and are a rich demographic to target but are usually healthy, they can afford hormonal treatments for their lifetime and also the expensive cosmetic surgeries, but have to be convinced they need it. The push of trans-rights and pride IMO is not grass-roots but is backed by money for the pursuit of more of it (not exclusively, but in terms of visibility the majority is backed by financial interests). There were just 1.6 million cosmetic procedures in 1997 to over 5.5 million in 2020, with the industry projected to grow from $57.67 billion in 2023 to $75.20 billion by 2030. In my view the fight of "gender reaffirming care is life-saving care" is to expand the market from rich middle class, to lower class with government health-plans.

Topic: Cosmetic surgery

Find the most relevant and recent facts about cosmetic surgery

www.statista.com

Cosmetic Surgery Market Size, Growth, Share | Analysis, 2030

The global cosmetic surgery market size was valued at $55.68 billion in 2022 & is projected to grow from $57.67 billion in 2023 to $75.20 billion by 2030

www.fortunebusinessinsights.com

Corporations are an "ally" to the left, and leftists defend big pharma and these treatments and drugs as life-saving care. Imagine if cigarettes or pain killers were a political and controversial topic, stuck in a perpetual tug-of-war. The longer the fight is in limbo the more money to be made, the more normal it becomes, the more ready and accepting we are for what is coming next.

The tide of the future is coming in, and transgenderism is just the lapping of the first few waves.

Body enhancing surgery is increasingly normalized in first-world nations

Cosmetic surgery in South Korea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Leg-lengthening surgery is gaining popularity among men seeking to be taller, doctors say

A 26-year-old man who had the procedure to increase his height from 5'7" to 5'10"explains what it was like.

www.nbcnews.com

Biohacking has been a thing (albiet mostly a novelty) for more than a decade now. You can go and buy an implant with installation kit right now

x-series injectable

dangerousthings.com

Corps are investing big on augmented reality

Microsoft HoloLens | Mixed Reality Technology for Business

Introducing HoloLens 2, an untethered mixed reality headset that's designed to help you solve real business problems today using intelligent apps and solutions.

www.microsoft.com

Apple Vision Pro

Apple Vision Pro seamlessly blends digital content with your physical space. So you can do the things you love in ways never before possible.

www.apple.com

Prosthesis are beginning to surpass our default meat-based parts

This bionic eye is better than a real one, scientists say

"I think in about 10 years, we should see some very tangible practical applications of these bionic eyes."

futurism.com

Dani Clode Design

An augmentation designer exploring the future body

www.daniclodedesign.com

China has had successful gene edits of human infants:

China’s CRISPR twins might have had their brains inadvertently enhanced

New research suggests that a controversial gene-editing experiment to make children resistant to HIV may also have enhanced their ability to learn and form memories.

www.technologyreview.com

Invasive brain implants have been approved for human trials:

Elon Musk's Neuralink 'brain chips' cleared for 1st in-human trials

Brain implants developed by Elon Musk's company Neuralink have been approved for human testing. The safety of the devices previously came under scrutiny following reports of "botched surgeries" in animal test subjects.

www.livescience.com

In many ways we are already bionically enhanced with the smart-phones we carry around us. They can monitor our health, serve effectively as memory banks, enhance communication (live translation capabilities), and give us access to knowledge that no one man could have. What lies ahead is making such features closer to the human body and mind. A separate device with touch input is clunky in comparison to one implemented in your mind. Technological development lies in enhancing the body and the senses, our vision, our ears, our limbs. A promise is being presented, if you don't like how you are you don't have to live like it. If youre deaf, you can pay to get hearing. If youre short, you can pay to be taller. If youre dumb, you can pay to be smarter. If your ugly, you can pay to be attractive. If your a boy, you can pay to be a girl.

As a programmer would you get a brain implant to keep up with your peers and the industry?
As a laborer would you get limb enhancements?
As a soon-to-be parent would you have your children's genes be edited to be healthier, taller, or smarter?
Entertainers have been modifying their bodies to keep work for decades, such things are not new or novel, they are just spreading to more industries and peoples.

I really don't think it's a matter of if, it's just when. Such things will become more normal, and then more accessible, and then ubiquitous. The Industrial Revolution, the Atomic Age, the Information Revolution -- what will we call the next age? The AI Age? The Bionic Revolution?

My question is how can we preserve our humanity as we undergo our next huge change? In many ways the human experience has dramatically changed with each age of the past, our way of life forever altered after the agrarian and forever altered again after the industrial, perhaps there is no preservation, maybe all we can do is to do our best at directing the flow of change towards a positive way of life. The world of nature gave birth unto man, perhaps it is to be that the world of man will give birth to the next evolutionary stage, machine intelligence.

 

[WKYK]

Any way I spin it in my mind I only see transhumanism as a negative. The first thing I think of is the arms race of people getting bionic enhancements for self security - as it stands, if you own a firearm then you are (basically) just as lethal as anyone else with a firearm, guns are the ultimate equalizer. But now imagine there are people with limbs that aren't injured when shot buy a .22 or 9mm bullet, if they try to break into your home or attack you on the street you are at a direct disadvantage unless you also get an upgrade. Take this further and imagine trying to fight the US military when all of their soldiers have metal appendages and precise aim with eye tech. Seems pretty bleak even if you do keep your body fully up to date with the current tech.

Then think about the proprietary part of this. There will be no such thing as free or "libre" bionics, assuming trends stay the same, so people will always be at risk of surveillance. You thought iPhone's were bad? Imagine everything you do, all your health statistics, your location, your conversations, everything monitored and sent to whatever company installed your limb. This will happen, guaranteed, and what's more messed up is that some children's parents may force this on them to make them stronger athletes or maybe just because they think it'll make their life better, so they won't even have a choice in this.

The social aspect will be the weirdest part to see. It will be really decisive, with some blindly trusting the science and others fully against it. I have no clue how long it will take legislation to pass bills on this kinda stuff, but it will probably start out small and for medical use only, like fixes for amputees and old people, the populace will get more comfortable with the idea of altering themselves and it will bleed into mainstream. I have no clue if it will ever be affordable to the average person, but then again the gov probably doesn't want the average person to have that kinda power.

These are just the first things that come to mind, I am curious if anyone has a more positive outlook on the future in this regard. I'm likely giving too much credit to the power these bio-enhancements will have, so I could totally be overreacting.

 

[h00]

here will be no such thing as free or "libre" bionics, assuming trends stay the same

I don't think this will be the case. I think when its in an emerging phase of tech this will be the case, but after a few years there'll be libre-hardware available. Like for smartphones there's Pine64 (lots of libre hardware more than just phones) and fairphone off the top of my head. There will be a scene for making at-home bionics, just how there is for at-home firearms, alls needed is some tools like 3d printer and perhaps basic machining tools.

I have no clue how long it will take legislation to pass bills on this kinda stuff, but it will probably start out small and for medical use only

Maybe for more invasive and untested things like neuralink, but height enhancing surgeries, hearing aids, and advanced prosthetics can all be had from private-citizen to private-company. Check the dangerousthings.com link in my initial post, theres a lot you can do just on your own (albiet the features are not as hightech as our fiction).

and what's more messed up is that some children's parents may force this on them to make them stronger athletes or maybe just because they think it'll make their life better, so they won't even have a choice in this.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Xll4xkLLvM

 

[Taleisin]

Firstly gotta drop this in here

Ccru- cybernetic culture research unit

 

[Mеченый Яков]

I'm just commenting to say that this thread has more quality and is actually better to discuss the topic due to the more open and pragmatic nature, so from now on this is gonna be the central thread for everything related to transhumanism (that includes the transgender topic).

Good job OP.

 

[Taleisin]

some food for thought:

View: https://youtu.be/Gi8LUnhP5yU

Frontiers | Organoid intelligence (OI): the new frontier in biocomputing and intelligence-in-a-dish

Recent advances in human stem cell-derived brain organoids promise to replicate critical molecular and cellular aspects of learning and memory and possibly a...

www.frontiersin.org

View: https://youtu.be/YnObwxJZpZc



I have some more advanced thoughts on this topic but I'm not sure how to begin the discussion

 

[dorgon]

Interesting topic! Now, I don't want to get into whether transgenderism is good or not or privacy issues about implants into your head or body because there's already topics about such things. I want to answer the initial question posted at the bottom.

Think of the Ship of Theseus. When you have a ship, and it wears off over time, and you replace the old rotting parts with new parts with the old parts, you'd eventually replace the entire ship. Is it still Theseus's ship? Now, replacing the entire human body won't happen until far in the future, if at all, but I think it is something interesting to consider, since we are going along the lines of replacing body parts, adding chips into our brains (will we think more like "robots" instead of humans?) and even editing genes (if you edit your child's genes enough, will it still really be your child?)

Personally, I believe that while we should always improve ourselves and become the best person we could be, chasing perfection to the point to where you're willing to sacrifice human aspects of you, such as (already functional) body parts or the way you think already, will you regret it? You can't reverse this decision, if you end up suffering bad consequences from this switch you will have to live with it for the rest of your life.

 

[Some_porcupine]

Think of the Ship of Theseus. When you have a ship, and it wears off over time, and you replace the old rotting parts with new parts with the old parts, you'd eventually replace the entire ship. Is it still Theseus's ship? Now, replacing the entire human body won't happen until far in the future, if at all, but I think it is something interesting to consider, since we are going along the lines of replacing body parts, adding chips into our brains (will we think more like "robots" instead of humans?) and even editing genes (if you edit your child's genes enough, will it still really be your child?)

Futurama - Zoidberg vs Hermes

 

[h00]

I have some more advanced thoughts on this topic but I'm not sure how to begin the discussion

schizo post in true agorian fashion, clarify in replies if need be

some food for thought:

also any timestamps for those videos? I dont want to watch hour+ atm

 

[WKYK]

I don't think this will be the case. I think when its in an emerging phase of tech this will be the case, but after a few years there'll be libre-hardware available. Like for smartphones there's Pine64 (lots of libre hardware more than just phones) and fairphone off the top of my head. There will be a scene for making at-home bionics, just how there is for at-home firearms, alls needed is some tools like 3d printer and perhaps basic machining tools.

I suppose you are right, there is a demand for it so eventually there probably will be more freedom centric bionics. But like with current tech I still think the vast majority of ppl will go with namebrand hardware, which will still heavily increase the amount of surveillance done on people. Not to mention, current tech and bionics are different in the sense that installing bionics feel like a higher risk buying than an iPhone. Say you're a normie going to get a new arm, would you trust the random off brand libre version or the society trusted apple arm? Still I like your optimism, I don't think I'll ever want to fuck with my body but if I change my mind at least there could be some options available for me.

View:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Xll4xkLLvM

The perfect video for this thread lol, but it wouldn't be complete without the darker MDE version

View: https://youtu.be/0h7lDLsbV60

 

[starbreaker]

In my view transgenderism is an expression of the Pharmaceutical and Cosmetic Surgery industries pursuit of more money. Transgenders are mostly young, white, and upper-middle class.

This is arrant bullshit. There have always been transgender people; we just didn't call them "transgender". Furthermore, I don't see why OP is against human beings modifying or augmenting their bodies. My eyesight isn't as sharp as it used to be as a younger man; should I not wear glasses to compensate?

 

[Taleisin]

schizo post in true agorian fashion, clarify in replies if need be

also any timestamps for those videos? I dont want to watch hour+ atm

would need to find timestamps for you and formulate that schizopost, but may do so

 

[CycFL]

One specific category, genetic engineering, will be being pushed very soon, because it's the only reasonable way to close a massive security hole: bioweapons.

As COVID has shown, we don't have the tools to contain a fast-spreading disease. If it had had a longer incubation period (during which it was transmissible) and a fatality rate more along the lines of SARS or MERS? We'd be fucked. Such a thing is possible right now (or will be within the next decade if not) with biotech.
And this isn't limited to state actors, either (in fact, you are less likely to see it from state actors in the near term due to it being basically impossible to control once deployed). Someone could develop something on the level of COVID already if they were willing to spend a few million on equipment and materials, and had the necessary knowhow (which is the bottleneck at the moment, but don't expect that to remain true for long). If nothing is done, we will be seeing new pandemics emerging at an unprecedented rate, getting more frequent and deadly as time goes on.

How does genetic engineering help here? By increasing the diversity of the human genome, it makes it much harder for a disease to spread through a population. This is because whichever biological pathways the disease is exploiting to infect have a much higher chance of being significantly altered or even absent in nearby individuals, thus preventing its spread to them.

 

[h00]

Someone could develop something on the level of COVID already if they were willing to spend a few million on equipment and materials, and had the necessary knowhow (which is the bottleneck at the moment, but don't expect that to remain true for long). If nothing is done, we will be seeing new pandemics emerging at an unprecedented rate, getting more frequent and deadly as time goes on.

I don't even think it's limited to man-made COVID-likes. We've had fears of super-bugs being anti-biotic resistant for a long-time due to our over-reliance on antibiotic use in agriculture. The war in Ukraine is showing that people are already suffering en-masse as their illnesses too often cannot be treated with Antibiotics.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(23)00264-5/fulltext

Do you think Genetic Engineering will be pushed to prevent bugs from exploiting their antibiotic immunity? From this perspective it seems as a net-good but to me it's scary to think about, in a way we're playing god, editing the fundamental blocks of our existence.

 

[CycFL]

Do you think Genetic Engineering will be pushed to prevent bugs from exploiting their antibiotic immunity?

The nice thing is that the genetic engineering solution should apply to any disease, not just bioweapons. So yes.
Though I think that bioweapons would be the more pressing concern, since we're not quite out of antibiotics to try yet.

 

[h00]

This is arrant bullshit. There have always been transgender people; we just didn't call them "transgender". Furthermore, I don't see why OP is against human beings modifying or augmenting their bodies. My eyesight isn't as sharp as it used to be as a younger man; should I not wear glasses to compensate?

Sure, transgender people have been around since antiquity, Hermaphroditus for instance. But in the west most Transgenders are from an upper-middle class demographic. I fail to see how such a claim is arrant bullshit, if you feel so strongly that it is please share some information to convince me otherwise.

I don't see why OP is against human beings modifying or augmenting their bodies.

Consider reading my post from beginning to end before replying, you will see that I'm not.

I think most people are fine with glasses, contacts, or prosthesis, but are not accepting of the genetic modification of newborns (as evidenced by the jailed Chinese scientist who succeeded with his gene editing). Do you think there is a line for ~"this is too invasive"? If so where is yours drawn?

I'm curious to hear your thoughts in more detail though. Maybe you can additionally share your answers to my posed questions in the OP.

 

[outervoid]

I think when its in an emerging phase of tech this will be the case, but after a few years there'll be libre-hardware available.

not in any place where regulatory bodies require medical devices to pass stringent requirements.

Like for smartphones there's Pine64 (lots of libre hardware more than just phones) and fairphone off the top of my head.

use any of these libre devices and hold them up to the commercial variant of them in terms of features and quality. they all absolutely suck. the pinephone is a devkit, the purism phone barely can make calls. android-based phones live because google open-sourced aosp to start.

even then libre technology lives mostly off of salvaged commercial components. if you want something truly libre with no blobs? good luck. you get the mnt reform or a coreboot'd core 2 duo from 2009. none of these solutions are remotely competitive with the commercial market. if libre is 10-15 years behind in technology to the new patchable commercial brain chip you cannot possibly compete without it.

 

[CycFL]

But in the west most Transgenders are from an upper-middle class demographic.

I'm pretty sure at least some of this perception is from selection bias. Upper-middle class people are on the internet more often, so you're gonna hear from the upper-middle class trans people more.

 

[WKYK]

privacy issues about implants into your head or body because there's already topics about such things.

Shoot my bad, I didn't realize there were threads for that already. Hope my comments above aren't too redundant.

Think of the Ship of Theseus. When you have a ship, and it wears off over time, and you replace the old rotting parts with new parts with the old parts, you'd eventually replace the entire ship. Is it still Theseus's ship?

I see this as an analogy to evolution. Piece by piece human DNA is rewritten via natural selection to be more optimized towards reproduction. I see bionics as another step, a more human controlled step in this evolution. But just because bionic beings will evolve from humans doesn't mean I really think they are humans. I mean look at apes, a species we evolved from, yet what do we do with them? Lock them in zoo's and watch them for entertainment. We know we are a descendant of them, yet humans feel no more empathy for apes as we do for other animals like cats and dogs. So then looking forward, will transhuman beings really see us as anything special?

 

[h00]

not in any place where regulatory bodies require medical devices to pass stringent requirements

there are regulatory bodies around firearms yet people still print/machine them at home and liberally share files and how-tos. There will be libre-hardware it just might be a grey market.

use any of these libre devices and hold them up to the commercial variant of them in terms of features and quality. they all absolutely suck.

Ive used the pinephone as a daily for just under 7 months and it met my needs. (phone, calls, web browser, maps, mp3 player). Most of the ecosystem is not greay but postmarketOS is solid as a mobile linux OS. /e/ OS on fairphone is also a near 1:1 of android minus some apps not working due to hard requirement of google play services. I have a draft on alternative mobile hardware and OS that will be posted soon but for now I respectfully disagree with your assessment.

if libre is 10-15 years behind in technology to the new patchable commercial brain chip you cannot possibly compete without it.

You raise a good point here. I dont mind having the hardware or features of an older phone, but where an occupation soft-requires you to have the latest hardware to be competitive you cant just say "oops sorry I cant interface with that thing my homebrew doesnt support it".
In an implant heavy world we might see a more distinct caste system, where the highest paying jobs are limited to those who have the highest performing implants. Maybe some businesses will provide them (and take them away) like many due with business laptops or phones.

I'm pretty sure at least some of this perception is from selection bias. Upper-middle class people are on the internet more often, so you're gonna hear from the upper-middle class trans people more.

I mean, everyone has internet access. I think the cause is inverse though, those that are chronically online identify with their online personas more than their meatspace selves, develop a weak identity, and are more likely to become transgender than their less-online peers. Its just upper middle class young people can afford the devices and time to be chronically online.