Yesterweb Discord set to close to refocus "effort into different projects"

[Orlando Smooth]

Soapbox Moment​

This is a perfect microcosm demonstrating why left-leaning social movements inevitably fail in the modern English-speaking world. The left eats itself, constantly, due to the baked-in mistrust of power structures, opposition to leadership figures, and unending application of purity tests to prove you're "on the good side." It pretty much always goes something like this:

1. A small group of ideologues (<25) decide they're dissatisfied with the status quo, and they are motivated enough to actually do something about it.
2. They organize, publicly stating their grievances (in this case, corporatization/centralization of the internet) and plans address them. They attract attention to themselves in order to grow in numbers and, therefore, significance.
3. As the movement grows, other people begin joining who agree with the foundational beliefs, but are not necessarily as educated on the matter. They bring with them the things that motivate them towards social change (in this case, seemingly, gender issues).
4. The two groups coexist for a while because while they wouldn't necessarily fight each others battles, they are generally aligned socially and therefore build a sort of an unofficial coalition.
5. As time goes by, more people from the group introduced in step 3 attain status within the the group established in step 2, thus needlessly intermingling the causes.
6. A small faction of the group from step 2 begins to say "I respect what you're doing, but that's not what I'm here for." This then causes the most zealous people from step 3 to accuse them of intolerance, being "uneducated on the issue," not committed to the cause, et cetera.
7. Friction turns in to infighting, whichever group has marginally more power institutes purity tests ("You can't claim to care about X unless you agree that the biggest problem today is actually Y"), drama ensues, and suddenly everyone's energy is sucked up by ensuring that everyone else is compliant with the criteria of the day instead of actually advocating for either original goal.
8. At this point the group now looks semi- or completely ridiculous to outside observers. If anyone at all is now joining the movement, they are themselves likely unstable and of no meaningful utility in terms of advocating for the changes originally conceived. So recruitment of new people either halts, or is limited only to recruiting people who will make the situation even worse.
9. The people from step 1 now either: abandon their own project, try to shut it down, or themselves become engulfed in the non-productive internal politics. In essence, the original goal is dead.

I write this from experience; in my teens and early 20's I was involved in various environmental organizations and saw this unfold several times. Outside people came in and wanted to make it all about food deserts, fossil fuel divestiture, addressing historical colonialism, going vegan, opposing nuclear, advocating for nuclear, changing public infrastructure, electrifying transportation, green farming, guerrilla gardening, removing non-native species, etc., etc., etc. Meanwhile, all I was trying to do (and the original group I was in) was protect the local waterways from pollutants and plant native species that could aid in removing pollutants from the ground soil. It was extremely frustrating to have our efforts thwarted by (usually) well meaning people, who actually agreed with our mission, but could not understand that leadership and authority is critical and our efforts could be advocated in parallel instead of creating one giant bolus of wide sweeping social change. And before anyone says so, no, it wasn't a psyop or infiltration by some agency. I personally knew the people who ruined things because we were in the same social circles and they were not agents of some kind, they were just entitled spoiled brats who thought that because something was the most important issue to them it should be the most important issue to everyone.

 

[Regal]

Soapbox Moment​

This is a perfect microcosm demonstrating why left-leaning social movements inevitably fail in the modern English-speaking world. The left eats itself, constantly, due to the baked-in mistrust of power structures, opposition to leadership figures, and unending application of purity tests to prove you're "on the good side." It pretty much always goes something like this:

1. A small group of ideologues (<25) decide they're dissatisfied with the status quo, and they are motivated enough to actually do something about it.
2. They organize, publicly stating their grievances (in this case, corporatization/centralization of the internet) and plans address them. They attract attention to themselves in order to grow in numbers and, therefore, significance.
3. As the movement grows, other people begin joining who agree with the foundational beliefs, but are not necessarily as educated on the matter. They bring with them the things that motivate them towards social change (in this case, seemingly, gender issues).
4. The two groups coexist for a while because while they wouldn't necessarily fight each others battles, they are generally aligned socially and therefore build a sort of an unofficial coalition.
5. As time goes by, more people from the group introduced in step 3 attain status within the the group established in step 2, thus needlessly intermingling the causes.
6. A small faction of the group from step 2 begins to say "I respect what you're doing, but that's not what I'm here for." This then causes the most zealous people from step 3 to accuse them of intolerance, being "uneducated on the issue," not committed to the cause, et cetera.
7. Friction turns in to infighting, whichever group has marginally more power institutes purity tests ("You can't claim to care about X unless you agree that the biggest problem today is actually Y"), drama ensues, and suddenly everyone's energy is sucked up by ensuring that everyone else is compliant with the criteria of the day instead of actually advocating for either original goal.
8. At this point the group now looks semi- or completely ridiculous to outside observers. If anyone at all is now joining the movement, they are themselves likely unstable and of no meaningful utility in terms of advocating for the changes originally conceived. So recruitment of new people either halts, or is limited only to recruiting people who will make the situation even worse.
9. The people from step 1 now either: abandon their own project, try to shut it down, or themselves become engulfed in the non-productive internal politics. In essence, the original goal is dead.

Exactly. Something I would talk about in the YW Discord was how we didn't need to talk all the time about trans issues, people going on HRT, etc. It simply was off-topic for the server and there are plenty of other spaces on the internet for that. The amount of pushback (aka "purity tests" as you called it) was insane.

Somewhere in that list I'll add two additional problems:

1. People joining for the aesthetic of the movement rather than actually getting educated or generating action for the social movement
2. Unless you want a protest or something where you just need warm bodies to fill a space, teenagers ultimately aren't very valuable to social movements

 

[stonehead]

Sad news. Even if I never used it, I hate to see another small internet community shutting down.

And before anyone says so, no, it wasn't a psyop or infiltration by some agency.​

This website's obsession with psyops is honestly pretty funny. No where else would a disclaimer like this be necessary.

---

As sad as it is that the site is shutting down, I didn't really like the self-righteous vibe it gave off. As an analogy, it's pretty similar to what's happening at my work. I'll avoid the details, but it's in a field that could vaguely be seen as "doing good" in the world. That's part of the reason I took this job even. But the longer I've worked here, the more emails I get about "the great impact we have" the more speeches the bosses give about "how important we are to the community", the more HR drags us into a meeting about whatever issue is currently trending regardless of how unrelated it is to the business, the less I start to believe it all.

It's the same thing with YesterWeb. It kind of seemed like they were more interested in "saying the wright thing" and "associating with the right people" than any actual old-web revival movement.


I mean, I don't really think any of the toxic posts on here are appropriate or even funny, but as the old adage goes, "don't feed the trolls." If you see something you don't think should be said, you just don't interact with it. If you're more concerned with people thinking you're a good person though, you'll make a big deal about how much it disgusts you, and how much the people who say that type of thing disgust you, and then how much people who even associate with people who say things like that disgust you.

 

[SolidStateSurvivor]

It's the same thing with YesterWeb. It kind of seemed like they were more interested in "saying the wright thing" and "associating with the right people" than any actual old-web revival movement.


I mean, I don't really think any of the toxic posts on here are appropriate or even funny, but as the old adage goes, "don't feed the trolls." If you see something you don't think should be said, you just don't interact with it. If you're more concerned with people thinking you're a good person though, you'll make a big deal about how much it disgusts you, and how much the people who say that type of thing disgust you, and then how much people who even associate with people who say things like that disgust you.

Like Orlando said, there's a "purity test" in works constantly, especially for those running this thing and trying to make it a movement. They essentially have to avoid any thing remotely controversial to pre-emptively stop any attempts at people cancelling them/usurping their authority. Malicious/power hungry actors can try to take them down a peg for certain opinions or damn them via association. With how important networking is with that sort of thing, the moment one becomes a "liability" (be it justly or not) they're going to get dropped with how homogenous the ideologies are within certain institutions.

 

[Regal]

As sad as it is that the site is shutting down, I didn't really like the self-righteous vibe it gave off.

Totally. Hell, I know people who were judged for being tech workers. Of course something like YW would attract folks in tech, but there was definitely the vibe of "you are another techbro working for the enemy." No comprehension of the type of people who are involved in indie tech projects.

 

[LostintheCycle]

This website's obsession with psyops is honestly pretty funny. No where else would a disclaimer like this be necessary.

I recommend you read 'Toxic Sludge is Good For You' and you'll see how American PR organizations have mastered the art of mindfucking grassroots movements to dust, particularly real movements like Orlando was talking about where people aren't fighting over bogus shit, but a specific problem that will hit their local community. Now, psyop isn't really the right word for it but it's something we all know and it's close enough to what actually goes on. It does happen, and it's more likely than you think.

 

[Hadrian Hardrada Cicero]

One last post or two before I go on my break. I'm just lurking for the time being. I promise!

Soapbox Moment​

This is a perfect microcosm demonstrating why left-leaning social movements inevitably fail in the modern English-speaking world. The left eats itself, constantly, due to the baked-in mistrust of power structures, opposition to leadership figures, and unending application of purity tests to prove you're "on the good side." It pretty much always goes something like this:

1. A small group of ideologues (<25) decide they're dissatisfied with the status quo, and they are motivated enough to actually do something about it.
2. They organize, publicly stating their grievances (in this case, corporatization/centralization of the internet) and plans address them. They attract attention to themselves in order to grow in numbers and, therefore, significance.
3. As the movement grows, other people begin joining who agree with the foundational beliefs, but are not necessarily as educated on the matter. They bring with them the things that motivate them towards social change (in this case, seemingly, gender issues).
4. The two groups coexist for a while because while they wouldn't necessarily fight each others battles, they are generally aligned socially and therefore build a sort of an unofficial coalition.
5. As time goes by, more people from the group introduced in step 3 attain status within the the group established in step 2, thus needlessly intermingling the causes.
6. A small faction of the group from step 2 begins to say "I respect what you're doing, but that's not what I'm here for." This then causes the most zealous people from step 3 to accuse them of intolerance, being "uneducated on the issue," not committed to the cause, et cetera.
7. Friction turns in to infighting, whichever group has marginally more power institutes purity tests ("You can't claim to care about X unless you agree that the biggest problem today is actually Y"), drama ensues, and suddenly everyone's energy is sucked up by ensuring that everyone else is compliant with the criteria of the day instead of actually advocating for either original goal.
8. At this point the group now looks semi- or completely ridiculous to outside observers. If anyone at all is now joining the movement, they are themselves likely unstable and of no meaningful utility in terms of advocating for the changes originally conceived. So recruitment of new people either halts, or is limited only to recruiting people who will make the situation even worse.
9. The people from step 1 now either: abandon their own project, try to shut it down, or themselves become engulfed in the non-productive internal politics. In essence, the original goal is dead.

I write this from experience; in my teens and early 20's I was involved in various environmental organizations and saw this unfold several times. Outside people came in and wanted to make it all about food deserts, fossil fuel divestiture, addressing historical colonialism, going vegan, opposing nuclear, advocating for nuclear, changing public infrastructure, electrifying transportation, green farming, guerrilla gardening, removing non-native species, etc., etc., etc. Meanwhile, all I was trying to do (and the original group I was in) was protect the local waterways from pollutants and plant native species that could aid in removing pollutants from the ground soil. It was extremely frustrating to have our efforts thwarted by (usually) well meaning people, who actually agreed with our mission, but could not understand that leadership and authority is critical and our efforts could be advocated in parallel instead of creating one giant bolus of wide sweeping social change. And before anyone says so, no, it wasn't a psyop or infiltration by some agency. I personally knew the people who ruined things because we were in the same social circles and they were not agents of some kind, they were just entitled spoiled brats who thought that because something was the most important issue to them it should be the most important issue to everyone.

This is what's going to happen to another community I've been carefully watching from a far with a similar story going on between two diffrent-- mostly gaming-- communities.

That out of the way, I completely find this development slightly humorous and if not a little sad. When Kameraad first complained to me on steam like a year ago on what was going on in the discord (telling me that none of the users were barely interested in holding a conversation if I'm remembering correctly) and then remembering first learning about Yesterweb in the old guard chat after the whole nagolbud incident, I just told him not let it get to him that if they don't want to chat with you because associations, that's their problem. Not his.

Skip to now and reading that not only did tried to hold a forum but then in a matter of seconds they decide to pull the plug once (and what was I told on the chatrooms here) not enough people migrated from the discord which they also pulled the plug on, I can't say I'm not that sad to see it go. From what I read from second hand accounts and this thread, they appeared to be actually intolerant. Way more than they claim with Agora Road. I wonder if some of the people who first originated here, are gonna return to this site now hmmm...

Honestly this thread and another one I recently responded in reminds me of a post I made in another thread long long ago, which while the subject is unrelated, my response to it I feel, still rings true to this day. Albeit, with extremely bad grammar since I was too tired to focus at that point, oops. In all seriousness despite my snark above:

To any Yesterweb member/refuge that decide to dip their toes into Agora Road, despite hearing all the rhetoric and nottrueities, I want to make something clear that despite that we may kick, shit, fight, trash, and bite one another with varying degree of hostilities. We're still welcoming and would like have you as our company. You just need to be prepare what goes on here and even if you disagree, we're not going to judge you and if anything would rather challenge you than judge. Here, it's your choice and decision to interact with us, no one here is forcing you and you're not especially obligated to respond and react 99% of the threads here regardless of quality. We just expect you to be as respectful and responsible as we are to this forum's culture and to go by the golden rule in not only Agora but everywhere, online or not. Let bygones be bygones and you'll be fine. Keep your faith and be strong!


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad-iger7Ysc

 

[Vaporweeb]

"There are too many opportunists, too many people that used the YW for financial or even just social gain. We thought maybe the issue was the discord server-it wasn't. It was a systemic issue."

"Oh dear, people are using the website for website sharing to share their websties.

Spoiler

[extremely debateable considering the apparent lack of a userbase LOL]

Better fucking give up and nuke the whole place because all those ideals I had apparently weren't that strong. Oh well!"

So much for reclaiming the internet from capitalism.
Agora once again reigns supreme!

 

[GhostBox]

While it is regrettable that yet another internet forum dies, am I the only one who finds the fact funny that they called themselves a "movement" for appropriating the hobby of teenage girls from the 1990s.

Being so self-serious and self-righteous is no way to have a good time.

 

[handoferis]

From the look of things they basically had someone whose only purpose was basically being a "political advisor" (paraphrase) on staff who is also the most whiny about burnout. I'd believe this person probably responsible for exuding negativity and ending up crippling the whole thing.

 

[IlluminatiPirate]

From the look of things they basically had someone whose only purpose was basically being a "political advisor" (paraphrase) on staff who is also the most whiny about burnout. I'd believe this person probably responsible for exuding negativity and ending up crippling the whole thing.

View attachment 59157

Lol who was it?

 

[GhostBox]

From the look of things they basically had someone whose only purpose was basically being a "political advisor" (paraphrase) on staff who is also the most whiny about burnout. I'd believe this person probably responsible for exuding negativity and ending up crippling the whole thing.

View attachment 59157

So your work is being a commissar, that sounds very essential for a community about making small websites.
I sure hope the internal reading list is about the html and css books with the animals on them.

 

[ZinRicky]

Lol who was it?

There were Sadness (~), Seapunk (ok), Auzzie (ok) and another one who had full-on Commie quotes on Discord. I think it's the last one

 

[RogerMexico]

From the look of things they basically had someone whose only purpose was basically being a "political advisor" (paraphrase) on staff who is also the most whiny about burnout. I'd believe this person probably responsible for exuding negativity and ending up crippling the whole thing.

View attachment 59157

Yeah, this exchange is a frustrating mess.

 

[GhostBox]

Yeah, this exchange is a frustrating mess.

Don't worry, the conclusion will be as always "there wasn't enough mumbo jumbo, we should have had more".

 

[wearyinternettraveler]

I always wanted to get into YW but it whenever I'd look it seemed inactive. I am too old to be groomed so I assumed the discord had nothing for me. How is it that a bunch of nerds who want to LARP as Lain decided to use discord which is the antithesis of "old web"?

Lots of Discord users are part of dozens of servers simultaneously. In my experience almost all of them are the same, typical channels like #general #off-topic #gaming #no-mic #memes #giveaways etc. and they all have the same culture because they're all made of the same Discord users. It's all Discord slush. I guess anyone willing to migrate to the forum are probably somewhat serious ones about the old web, but I will say that I'm generally not sure how much anyone 'believed' in Yesterweb beyond it looking kinda neat.

"Discord slush" is a good way of describing it. It's the same shit no matter where you go, down to the same memes being spread in #memes. I can't wait for >reddit style powerjannies to start sweeping it up on multiple discords and maintain widely distributed banlists for shitposters

I sure hope the internal reading list is about the html and css books with the animals on them.

I'm sure it had stuff like Neuromancer and Snow Crash in it and not their personal magnum opus "The Communist woManifesto"

 

[GhostBox]

I always wanted to get into YW but it whenever I'd look it seemed inactive. I am too old to be groomed so I assumed the discord had nothing for me. How is it that a bunch of nerds who want to LARP as Lain decided to use discord which is the antithesis of "old web"?

It is convenient and has the install base.

The biggest hurdle for an old web revival project is the fact that new services are simply easy to use and the computer does the discovery for you.
In many ways making your own webpage about whatever topic is pointless thanks to wikis, YT explainers and the fact that standards gone up too much.

I think the challenge is not impossible, but you will need a core of users who basically force the egregore into existence.
I saw many forums, image boards and communities die just because they lacked the few people who are active and feel the place alive enough so others start to more organically take part in it. It may sound cynical, but yeah you need to provide the critical mass and back bone of culture first, then you can worry about other things.

 

[ZinRicky]

In many ways making your own webpage about whatever topic is pointless thanks to wikis, YT explainers and the fact that standards gone up too much.

I looked up the Lainchan webring once, but half of the posts were like "Ewww, yet another personal blog!". The issue is, as you said, writing about anything but yourself is a difficult task if you have to stand next to wikis and video essays on your favourite subject.

 

[GhostBox]

I looked up the Lainchan webring once, but half of the posts were like "Ewww, yet another personal blog!". The issue is, as you said, writing about anything but yourself is a difficult task if you have to stand next to wikis and video essays on your favourite subject.

Having a project or hobby you can showcase could help.

I was thinking about making a webpage myself, but due to big anxiety issues, I am impressed I can post on a forum, let alone make a website. lol

 

[GhostBox]

I have a semi-off topic question:
Is any attempt at making a web-revival pointless, or can it be done?

Sorry for the duplicate post, but I didn't want to make a new topic about this.

Basically how can we get people into forums, personal websites etc when we cannot compete with the content of the super platforms?
Do we need a webbooru with a robust tagging system or what. lol