Transience and Eternity

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I have returned. I had to login to be able to acess the search function and I figured I might as well do a small visit.

In this thread I am going to talk about my core ideology - "Transience and Eternity". This thread's only purpose is to articulate the thoughts I am having since 2021, nothing more, nothing else. I am also curious to see what you guys think of it.

From my perspective everything in life is on the "Transience to Eternity" spectrum. An extreme example is a lightning bolt that briefly flash through the sky. As an example of Eternity, Chess is a good candidate as it was around for a long time. My usage of the word "eternity" is not literal and essentially just mean "last very long" or "do not have any systematic transience".

Now, transience and eternity themselves are not good/evil values. Transience is often necessary in many scenario and eternity is sometime not very favorable.

My main point of contempt since 2021 has been what I call "engineered transience". In our modern world a lot of things fall into this category:

  • Planned obsolescence
  • Online DRM or online-only games
  • Websites on the internet
  • Software no longer working on old computers due to arbitrary choices
You get the gist of it.

Starting from 07 January 2022, I went into a quest for "Eternity" which can essentially be summed up as the following:

  • Archiving all my software/games and unsuring it works offline
  • Putting a stop to all online communication as to not engage in the transience
  • Prevent the creation of new technological transience in my life
This was one of my motive for that challenge among other things. Although my challenge was sucessful, those old habits eventually came back and here I am on Agora Road again.

From all the research I did, it seems that people actively seek transience. A good example of this is people always seeking new content on social media. Turns out I am naturally no exception.

Still, I can't shake my head how wrong it feels to be on the internet on general. My internal thoughts are always ("No, that's not sustainable!"). People in general are always focused on either the past or the future. Although I cannot stop the present, I want to freeze the local frameworks that govern it as to finally escape the unecessary transience.

I suposse that in the end, it is all a question of control.
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Public libraries are a disease. Libraries intending on archival are the only ones I really care about anymore and are essential. The Public Library is nothing more than a Blockbuster video for poor people and a place to be fed the latest progressive drivel.
Have you ever actually been to a library for longer than 10 minutes? You can hang out there with a laptop without paying for a $6 latte every hour. You can talk with friends if you're quiet. I used to tutor there. If you don't like the gender books just hang out in the engineering/science/classic lit section. Public libraries are lovely places! I used to go regularly to this one library in the NYC area that looked like a castle with a fireplace and amazing views. Well, until this one homeless girl fell in love with me and stalked me there. So I guess I can agree on some of the drawbacks.
Captain:

We willingly tare down buildings for dumb reasons. My local high school is going to be demolished because it doesn't "meet the needs of a diverse community ". It was built in 1973, is huge, and supports double the amount of students currently occupying it. It's also in great shape....brick,concrete, glass. So we are going to bulldoze it for a flimsy pos that will probably need a renovation 10 years later. It's amazing how shortsighted all the NPCs are.
This is a problem in every medium. You'll have a perfectly working phone from the 10s, car from the 00s, baseball stadium from the 70s - that people start crying needs to be replaced. Why? "Because it's old." I think most people here are exceptions but it seems to be a characteristic of the human race to be addicted to anything new and shiny, even if it's worse (or slightly better but not remotely worth the effort).
LostInTheCycle:
Anyway, we are too mean about eternity. There is a natural allure to it, because it implies strength, robustness, perhaps truth. For instance, the ancient Greek works have significant eternity. Their works used to be limited to a small geographic area, but after their death they slowly grew to be accessible over the whole world. Their ideas are so eternal that they became stronger and more deeply rooted after they died.
I love this concept of eternity. One thing that drew me to areas of study like Latin and even theology (well, Bible study) is that it feels very complete and unchanging. There won't likely be any new developments, all you have to look through is the small pile of books on your desk, but you can look through them at so many different levels, all of which have been considered by scholars for thousands of years.
 

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Have you ever actually been to a library for longer than 10 minutes? You can hang out there with a laptop without paying for a $6 latte every hour.
Just thought I'd mention, this paying $6 for a latte every hour actually depends a bit on where you go for your latte. If they have a high demand, then of course they do this, but if it's a low demand place, they're usually welcoming to people hanging around for longer. In Western Countries, restaurants, cafes etc also seem to have a very "get your drink and get pushed out the door" mentality, but if you go to other countries you'll find it's a lot more leisurely.
Not really relevant to the discussion at hand, but I just wanted to mention it because it's an odd thing that's almost definitely a city thing.
Have you ever actually been to a library for longer than 10 minutes? You can hang out there with a laptop without paying for a $6 latte every hour. You can talk with friends if you're quiet.
It's also an indoor place to meet friends before going elsewhere, and also a place where computers are easily accessible and provided with internet access, which for homeless people can make a huge difference in getting a job and getting themselves out of homelessness. But this is more about public libraries as a sort of "public function room" if the function is quiet and not loads of people. It's also as something to provide support to people.
I used to go regularly to this one library in the NYC area that looked like a castle with a fireplace and amazing views. Well, until this one homeless girl fell in love with me and stalked me there. So I guess I can agree on some of the drawbacks.
Out of curiosity, is NYC a cold city? I've seen online pictures of places there with external air conditioning attached to apartments, so I'm assuming it's a hotter city? On that point of support, it also provides a place out of the elements to be for a little bit(before it closes for the night if it's not a 24/7 library).
 
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Captain

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Have you ever actually been to a library for longer than 10 minutes? You can hang out there with a laptop without paying for a $6 latte every hour. You can talk with friends if you're quiet. I used to tutor there. If you don't like the gender books just hang out in the engineering/science/classic lit section. Public libraries are lovely places! I used to go regularly to this one library in the NYC area that looked like a castle with a fireplace and amazing views. Well, until this one homeless girl fell in love with me and stalked me there. So I guess I can agree on some of the drawbacks.

This is a problem in every medium. You'll have a perfectly working phone from the 10s, car from the 00s, baseball stadium from the 70s - that people start crying needs to be replaced. Why? "Because it's old." I think most people here are exceptions but it seems to be a characteristic of the human race to be addicted to anything new and shiny, even if it's worse (or slightly better but not remotely worth the effort).

I love this concept of eternity. One thing that drew me to areas of study like Latin and even theology (well, Bible study) is that it feels very complete and unchanging. There won't likely be any new developments, all you have to look through is the small pile of books on your desk, but you can look through them at so many different levels, all of which have been considered by scholars for thousands of years.
There is a big difference between a NYC library and a normal sized town library. It's like you saw someone saying "man my 5 year old Chevy Spark sure sucks" and responded "Well my brand new S class Mercedes is the best car in the world! Maybe you haven't been in a car for more than 10 minutes." These large sections you speak of are a 5 foot shelf in most places. Good luck finding quality unfiltered internet in most places. My library has zero places where you can talk and it's 4 stories. In face there was a large room where you could sit at tables all day and work on stuff....but that got trashed so they could put more DVD shelves there for the poor peoples Blockbuster. So it's either get a DVD, borrow a social issues book, or get the fuck out. The only thing it has of any value is an entire floor of kids books.
 
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Regal

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Chasing eternity as a transient being is futile. Anything presented in our microscopic lives are not eternal. Even foundational history like Rome will someday be forgotten or such a diluted myth of itself that it is no longer what it was.

Our technology is not ever meant to be eternal. As @LostintheCycle said, eternity isn't inherently superior. Eternity requires stagnancy which holds back the progression of technology. Environmental concerns aside technology being transient is a good thing.

My hot take is that even designed obsolescence provides progress. Adoption of new tech is progress. It is a shitty business practice but that doesn't change this upside.
 

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Our technology is not ever meant to be eternal.
Depends on the type of technology. I'd suggest reading Theodore Kaczynski's manifesto, but on the point of technology, there's 2 types of technology. Local technology, easily made, easily created, easily maintained... eternal for all intents and purposes(so by meaning it's eternal, but by theory and heat death of the universe, it's not). Then there's infrastructural technology. When you look at the fall of the Roman Empire, a lot of infrastructural technology was lost, like proper piping, aqueducts etc... even the steam engine was invented during the Hellenistic era. But all this was lost in the collapse of a civilisation, which brings a collapse of infrastructure, and a collapse of infrastructural technology.

The main dividing point on infrastructural technology and local technology is complexity. A chair isn't that complex, but the tools to make it may be(saws). Your own computer is an absolute nightmare for this. It could be as simple as 100r.co tries to make it in terms of software, but the hardware for computers is the nightmare of complexity.

Adoption of new tech is progress.
New != better. Open sewers were used following the closed sewers of Rome in Medieval era, which was newer... but worse. Similarly older isn't worse. Roman Concrete is better than our modern concrete, yet lost to time.
 
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Chasing eternity as a transient being is futile. Anything presented in our microscopic lives are not eternal. Even foundational history like Rome will someday be forgotten or such a diluted myth of itself that it is no longer what it was.

Our technology is not ever meant to be eternal. As @LostintheCycle said, eternity isn't inherently superior. Eternity requires stagnancy which holds back the progression of technology. Environmental concerns aside technology being transient is a good thing.

My hot take is that even designed obsolescence provides progress. Adoption of new tech is progress. It is a shitty business practice but that doesn't change this upside.
Hmm, it is true that my current views on technology are anchored hard in the era I was born in. DOS scares me, but if I was born a few years earlier, perphaps I would be a DOS suprematist that would would both reject Windows and Linux.

I guess my current view are mainly because it seems that 99% of things invented past 2012 seems to be shit. When some modern software do not work or is mediocre, my go to solution is to go back a couple of year as this is almost always an indicator of quality.

I know that people are talking about the decline of the world since literally the time of Plato, but I wonder if this attitude toward technology is purely a modern thing. I wonder if back in 2005 there were people like "Ugh, Windows XP is so bad, where the fuck is society going".

The only thing I know is that pretty much everyone IRL (even normies) seems to agree that the current state of affairs is fucked up.
 

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New != better. Open sewers were used following the closed sewers of Rome in Medieval era, which was newer... but worse. Similarly older isn't worse. Roman Concrete is better than our modern concrete, yet lost to time.

Agreed overall. In that paragraph I was talking about designed obsolescence though which narrows it down to a very specific type of technology. Cell phones are the easy example. There are benefits to people being forced to update their iPhones and not indefinitely be able to use something 10 years old.

I wonder if back in 2005 there were people like "Ugh, Windows XP is so bad, where the fuck is society going".

Lol, yes, people complain about every new Windows UI experience.

 

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Lol, yes, people complain about every new Windows UI experience.



That was expected, I do recall someone here mentionning that back had the opinion that the Luna theme was too "Fisherprice-like". While people always complained, surely there is now more complaints than ever right?

Someone should really make a "map of the darkness of the world" or something.
 
Just thought I'd mention, this paying $6 for a latte every hour actually depends a bit on where you go for your latte. If they have a high demand, then of course they do this, but if it's a low demand place, they're usually welcoming to people hanging around for longer. In Western Countries, restaurants, cafes etc also seem to have a very "get your drink and get pushed out the door" mentality, but if you go to other countries you'll find it's a lot more leisurely.
Not really relevant to the discussion at hand, but I just wanted to mention it because it's an odd thing that's almost definitely a city thing.
It's definitely dependent, even in cities, but it's such an unpleasant experience to be told to leave that I end up not wanting to risk it if I'm stopping at a cafe I'm not familiar with. Not to mention some cafes near colleges even filter the internet to absurd degrees (seen DuckDuckGo blocked lmao). But I've never seen anyone respectful told to leave a library, except at closing time.
There is a big difference between a NYC library and a normal sized town library. It's like you saw someone saying "man my 5 year old Chevy Spark sure sucks" and responded "Well my brand new S class Mercedes is the best car in the world! Maybe you haven't been in a car for more than 10 minutes." These large sections you speak of are a 5 foot shelf in most places. Good luck finding quality unfiltered internet in most places. My library has zero places where you can talk and it's 4 stories. In face there was a large room where you could sit at tables all day and work on stuff....but that got trashed so they could put more DVD shelves there for the poor peoples Blockbuster. So it's either get a DVD, borrow a social issues book, or get the fuck out. The only thing it has of any value is an entire floor of kids books.
I've lived in smaller, poorer, and more dangerous towns than NYC and never had this experience, but it can happen if a public library has poor management. It's the same with anything public - if your city isn't willing to kick people out who try sleeping in the neighborhood park, you won't have a place to take your kids.
Out of curiosity, is NYC a cold city? I've seen online pictures of places there with external air conditioning attached to apartments, so I'm assuming it's a hotter city? On that point of support, it also provides a place out of the elements to be for a little bit(before it closes for the night if it's not a 24/7 library).
NYC gets both cold and hot. You definitely need heating in the winter, and you can survive without AC in the summer (I lived somewhere for a few months that had such an insanely loud air conditioner that I mostly kept it off) but it's not pleasant.
 

Voicedrew

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It's definitely dependent, even in cities, but it's such an unpleasant experience to be told to leave
I spent 6 hours in a Tim Hortons one morning completing school work and nobody bothered me (having only bought a double-double for 1.83). Must suck to be an Americuck.
 
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LostintheCycle

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My hot take is that even designed obsolescence provides progress. Adoption of new tech is progress. It is a shitty business practice but that doesn't change this upside.
You are precisely wrong. A company practicing planned obscolescence does it because they have decided they do not want to bring in new value, they'd rather repurpose the value they already have. So, they break their phones to manufacture want/need for their product. Then, they don't need to improve their product because the customer will buy it regardless. They are actually allowed to be complacent and provide minimal progress if they want, which they will because it's pointless now. The numbers increment annually, but it doesn't change much. Nobody needs a faster phone. My S6 is eight years old and still runs all the apps I need at a good speed.
Planned obscolescence in a lot of industries that aren't just smartphones can result in just purchasing the same item, not a newer one. Light bulbs for instance, the patient zero of the planned obscolescence virus, do not progress. It is more or less the same when you get another light bulb.
So, planned obscolescence does not always lead to the adoption of new technology, but also the newer technology is less likely to be better precisely because of it. Not to mention, if something is being purposefully made less reliable, that would actually be deprogressive design because features of it are being stripped out.
In the best case scenario, you are trading off longevity and reliability for something that is unlikely to be meaningfully better.
 
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7Pebbles

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I'd like to point out that you can choose to stop these behaviours at any moment if you thought it worthwhile. If you don't believe me, open a web browser, stretch out your hand, and ask the "master" of these "compulsions" to start watching YouTube shorts.

Your hand will, of course, remain stationary.

Any time you get into this situation, simply ask yourself, will this make me happy, or more likely, am I deriving pleasure from this? Could I receive more pleasure by not doing this? If not, then go ahead with a clear conscience. Otherwise, congratulations! You don't have to. It's worth celebrating this moment.

When we engage in behaviours we are habituated to, that no longer make us happy, we are very quick to rationalize our unhappiness with a "compulsion" or an "addiction". In truth, before you began, and while you were doing it, you saw value in the activity. It is only when we look retroactively that we see the meaninglessness of it. It is at this point we rationalize the dissonance between how we have behaved in the past and how we feel now.

Hope this can be of value to you
I find myself to have all sorts of behaviors that I'd rather not have in the long run. These are often persistent responses to situations in which I felt threatened in some capacity. Trauma responses, defense mechanisms, etc. In these cases, I often cling to the behavior that caused me to survive the situation because I know that it works enough to keep me alive. I cling to these things irrationally. I can see how my life would be measurably better if I did not engage with them, yet I return time and time again, until I can manage to break the survivor bias, and prove to myself that something else really truly could be better. I understand that these behaviors are within my control, and that they have a basic value, but I call it "enslavement" because I do not want to continue in them yet out of faulty reasoning in my most animal like brain, I cling to them. I am slave to myself because I can't get out of my own way. I don't want to always engage with my most immediate desire, because those desires can be misguided.
 
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Voicedrew

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I understand that these behaviors are within my control, and that they have a basic value, but I call it "enslavement" because I do not want to continue in them yet out of faulty reasoning in my most animal like brain, I cling to them. I am slave to myself because I can't get out of my own way. I don't want to always engage with my most immediate desire, because those desires can be misguided.
Firstly, abandon this notion of an "animal brain". Certainly, there are more primal parts of the brain, but it is only there to keep you alive, otherwise, it is entirely subordinated to the conscious you. I can attest, It is the quickest way to abandon all control and responsibility over your life. Abandon it, and see it all as yourself. Now on to the rest of my post.

You should first acknowledge that if you are engaging in a behaviour at all, you see value in it, not "basic" value, but serious, rational value. A student may study because they believe it will prevent them from failing an exam (removal of a negative). One may watch YouTube because he believes it will relieve his stress or boredom. Neither need be true, it's the belief that counts. Become a professional Redditor in your own psyche. Deboonk everything; question all preconceptions you have about the thing you are supposedly "enslaved" to. I reckon will find that they are a lot less valuable than you initially imagined.

It is not enough to think that a current behaviour or habit is bad. Rather, it is necessary to find a new pattern of behaviour which is actually superior. A gamer may think that games are ruining his life, but if he sees a pitiful existence not worth having without them, he is stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea.

Your OP was incredibly vague, of course, so I can't offer any guidance for any particular issue. So TL;DR, stop being a cuck that views yourself as a passive observer in your own mind, and start taking responsibility for yourself. Deboonk false beliefs and experiment with new behaviours which you may be happier with. Also, read the freedom model, basically God's gift to us modern cretins.
 
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So today I went into a bit of a rabbit hole and studied how the internet worked. My goal was simple: find a way to exchange data between two machines that have an unforwaded IP adress.

From what I gathered, this is straight up impossible. The entire internet seems to be build on the reliance of third party. Although it's possible to send data over a local network using a specialized p2p protocols, connecting to a machine outside the local network seems to be straight up impossible without a forwaded IP and a server.

That's so fucked up. All this research just want me to go offline for 7 months again.
 

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Shit like this make me want to join the amish and reject all technology

This is the true end goal. Although replace christianity with paganism and the actual suprasensible powers(gods).

Live off the grid. Find a wonderful woman with ample, child-bearing hips, which you will worship and make 12 children and start living with nature, instead off of it again. In an actual community where you value spiritual growth and commitment instead of material pointlessness.


Come home white man.

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All is fleeting. The universe for humanity at one point will cease to exist. Life is but a fevered dream.

Dopamine is a hell of a drug, and the systems and designs in place today are just ways to tap into your innate chemical systems and place you under duress. Like alcoholics, smokers, drug addicts - once you have pushed your neurotransmitter producers and receptors to their limit, everything else just feels dull and unable to compete. We live in a world of heightened and maximized release. It's hard to break that cycle, it's hard to reset.

I recently turned to mediation and breath work to bring myself back to center. Followed with plentiful exercise and cold exposure. Not because I believe in some online fad FOTM phenomenon, but because I believe in the power of the human body. The power we all hold within ourselves to challenge even the hardest things in our life and overcome. I used to be cold and freezing at 65F and couldn't stand it. Now I take showers at 43F and go outside at 19-28F without a jacket without a second care in the world. Its fascinating what the human body can do. It's not about being used to cold, but stressing the body in ways that you can control. Once you are in control of yourself and have the reins over your mind, dropping out of every other facade becomes much easier, less complicated, less of a mental task.

And yeah, you have to rely on third party without going through the pain of writing and producing your own product. Learn and write a communications program. Host an exchange server. The problem is we are not all gifted in everything. Sometimes you have to make compromises. There is a reason we all specialize in something and share together the benefits of all of the work - TIme. We don't have enough time in our lives to become scientists, butchers, writers, programmers, dancers, etc etc etc. So we share the wealth in our society to achieve a greater goal by the masses.

I only have 24 hours per day. thats 1/365 of a year
100 people have 2400 hours in a day. thats 1/3 of a year
100000 have 2400000 hours in a day. that's 274 years or 2.7 lifetimes

so 100,000 people live collectively 2.7 persons lifetimes in a single day.
Doing a rough calculation, the human race currently lives just shy of 22 million years collectively EACH day (24 hours).
 
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LostintheCycle

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All is fleeting. The universe for humanity at one point will cease to exist. Life is but a fevered dream.

Dopamine is a hell of a drug, and the systems and designs in place today are just ways to tap into your innate chemical systems and place you under duress. Like alcoholics, smokers, drug addicts - once you have pushed your neurotransmitter producers and receptors to their limit, everything else just feels dull and unable to compete. We live in a world of heightened and maximized release. It's hard to break that cycle, it's hard to reset.

I recently turned to mediation and breath work to bring myself back to center. Followed with plentiful exercise and cold exposure. Not because I believe in some online fad FOTM phenomenon, but because I believe in the power of the human body. The power we all hold within ourselves to challenge even the hardest things in our life and overcome. I used to be cold and freezing at 65F and couldn't stand it. Now I take showers at 43F and go outside at 19-28F without a jacket without a second care in the world. Its fascinating what the human body can do. It's not about being used to cold, but stressing the body in ways that you can control. Once you are in control of yourself and have the reins over your mind, dropping out of every other facade becomes much easier, less complicated, less of a mental task.

And yeah, you have to rely on third party without going through the pain of writing and producing your own product. Learn and write a communications program. Host an exchange server. The problem is we are not all gifted in everything. Sometimes you have to make compromises. There is a reason we all specialize in something and share together the benefits of all of the work - TIme. We don't have enough time in our lives to become scientists, butchers, writers, programmers, dancers, etc etc etc. So we share the wealth in our society to achieve a greater goal by the masses.

I only have 24 hours per day. thats 1/365 of a year
100 people have 2400 hours in a day. thats 1/3 of a year
100000 have 2400000 hours in a day. that's 274 years or 2.7 lifetimes

so 100,000 people live collectively 2.7 persons lifetimes in a single day.
Doing a rough calculation, the human race currently lives just shy of 22 million years collectively EACH day (24 hours).
Please keep posting because you write a beautiful truth. There are those of us who wish we could do everything, live in a Uncle Ted shack in the woods but don't face the hard truth that we don't have all the time in the world to relearn these things, and maybe it just isn't worth it. Besides, life is good with some good friends and a lover, and little else more.
 
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7Pebbles

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Firstly, abandon this notion of an "animal brain". Certainly, there are more primal parts of the brain, but it is only there to keep you alive, otherwise, it is entirely subordinated to the conscious you. I can attest, It is the quickest way to abandon all control and responsibility over your life. Abandon it, and see it all as yourself. Now on to the rest of my post.

You should first acknowledge that if you are engaging in a behaviour at all, you see value in it, not "basic" value, but serious, rational value. A student may study because they believe it will prevent them from failing an exam (removal of a negative). One may watch YouTube because he believes it will relieve his stress or boredom. Neither need be true, it's the belief that counts. Become a professional Redditor in your own psyche. Deboonk everything; question all preconceptions you have about the thing you are supposedly "enslaved" to. I reckon will find that they are a lot less valuable than you initially imagined.

It is not enough to think that a current behaviour or habit is bad. Rather, it is necessary to find a new pattern of behaviour which is actually superior. A gamer may think that games are ruining his life, but if he sees a pitiful existence not worth having without them, he is stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea.

Your OP was incredibly vague, of course, so I can't offer any guidance for any particular issue. So TL;DR, stop being a cuck that views yourself as a passive observer in your own mind, and start taking responsibility for yourself. Deboonk false beliefs and experiment with new behaviours which you may be happier with. Also, read the freedom model, basically God's gift to us modern cretins.
I'm not here shirking responsibility for my actions. Anywhere I find myself engaging in a behavior that I don't want to, I do just as you've described. I sit and think about what I'm doing, why I do it, and if it makes sense to keep doing it, or if there is some superior behavior that I could implement. I'm not a passive observer in my own mind, helpless to do anything, but I am able to observe myself abstractly, and make changes to my life from there. My previous posts were perhaps a bit too focused on the problem and less on the solution.
 
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