Issues with the transgender ideology (And wizardposting)

[0-Star-Candy-0]

Then why threads from other members related with trannies are also deleted? Also why OP deleted said threads of his?

I don't recall having any previous threads. If I had any it would've been over 9 months ago.

 

[0-Star-Candy-0]

I never claimed that. Straight up lie. All I did was claim that public forums are meant for arguments to be made, even if out of the blue. As for etiquette, I did not know that. However, since it is MY thread I want as much engagement as quickly as possible and I don't think I should have to wait for someone else to post before posting again. I don't have time to reply to every post as they happen either. I'm simply speeding up the discussion process to hear as much debate as possible. What's wrong with that?

Plus keeping my replies in a cluster helps new viewers to catch up quickly

 

[0-Star-Candy-0]

Ok so I occasionally have time to reply to posts as they happen but I won't in literally an hour, so like I'll only come back after like half a day.

 

[Sketch Relics]

Then why threads from other members related with trannies are also deleted? Also why OP deleted said threads of his?

Imma be honest, the only trans thread I remember existing was Trans: Yes or No by @Yabba , he deleted it due to an off-hand drunken comment (as was described by the poster of said comment) criticizing those types of threads. Ironically said poster didn't actually want the thread deleted, but what's done is done.

 

[remember_summer_days]

Then why threads from other members related with trannies are also deleted? Also why OP deleted said threads of his?

OP deleted his threads because he thought the Yes/No threads were downgrading the quality of discussion in the community.

What other trans threads were deleted?

 

[Agoras Vagabond]

If "transgender ideology" is the belief that male and female are not categorically real then the people who cling to it are deeply confused about the world and their place in it. A more pertinent question is how do we help them deal with that confusion? Outside of targeted goodwill and a willingness to relate relevant experience I don't have any answers. To the extent that I've spoken with people irl who cling to transgenderism and other leftists notions I've come to except the fact that facts, logic, reason, and argument are not the correct approach. Those are for people who don't feel right about it but can't figure out how to put those feelings into words. True believers require a completely different approach if they are to be engaged at all.

 

[LostintheCycle]

You are posting single sentences minutes part, none of the reasons you give for doing this make sense. Do you just not understand the post formatting tools yet? You can put multiple replies in one post, it's what everyone does here, that way you aren't inflating the size of the thread and are also making what you have to say more readable. Exceptions are usually humor/shitpost threads, or when a user is making multiple giant replies close together, sometimes because they are hitting the character limit for a post so it becomes necessary.
Regarding speed... unless it's a firey topic like this thread, you probably won't get fast responses, but you'll still get good ones regardless. Lots of people spend a lot of time and put a lot of care into writing good posts, it takes time dude. If you want fast discussion there's already places for that. As an example, I made a thread the other day about interesting non-HTTP servers, it had some activity at the start which was good, and I expect it'll now remain dormant for a couple months until somebody lurks into it and has something random to contribute, if I'm lucky. That's just how it is sometimes, but at least it isn't like some places where once the initial bubble finishes nobody will ever look at your thread again.
I wanna conclude by saying this thread is kinda lacking, probably because we already had the huge deleted transgender thread, and I doubt anyone wants to rehash everything again. I certainly don't even though I have a lot of thoughts on the subject.
I look forward to seeing anything else you write on here dude, would love to see what other topics you like to talk about.

 

[WALFTEAM]

can we have a thread about AOCs alleged Twitter alt instead

 

[remember_summer_days]

can we have a thread about AOCs alleged Twitter alt instead
View attachment 58620

I know her alt got exposed, but Holy shit is screencap real?

 

[RisingThumb]

Double posting is acceptable conduct on a forum sometimes, if multiple messages is a better way to conduct a post than a single message(and even then, usually just edit unless enough time has passed). There's several reasons why posting more than twice is BAD PRACTICE on a forum. It is very disrespectful to the owners of the forum, as each new message adds more to be stored(time data, formatting data etc, not so relevant now, but in 2000s this was quite relevant). It is disrespectful to users on the site as you keep bumping this thread to the top of the new posts list. It is disrespectful to people reading the thread as you are wasting a lot of their vertical screen estate, and making it hard for them to reply to you. It is disrespectful for people searching the forums, as the search functionality functions on posts and each one of your posts pollutes that.

Additionally, use the search before making a new thread. If you had, you'd find multiple threads that address the topic already. I've done the hard work for you and I'll post them here:

1. https://forum.agoraroad.com/index.php?threads/deleuzian-analysis-of-transgenderism.5181/
2. https://forum.agoraroad.com/index.php?threads/lain-and-zoomers.5411/
3. https://forum.agoraroad.com/index.p...dont-see-the-connection-to-trans-people.5233/
4. There was a deleted thread by @Yabba recently that exhausted a lot of discussion about it

It's clear to me you're new to the forums as you've posted very little before. Respect the forum culture, don't mass bump threads, check for older threads before posting(necro'ing is shamed on other forums, but not so much here)... or people here will think you're a massive shithead. FYI, I already think you're a massive shithead from the way you've kept on bumping when others were telling you to stop. As for your OP, don't expect people to respond to it thoughtfully if you're shitting up the thread.

I also want to ask others who are reading this thread. Personally, I'm getting very sick of these "LGBTQ" and "Trans" threads and posts that I'm seeing more and more often- shouldn't there be a containment general thread for these discussions? I say containment because the threads linked above quickly derailed into flame wars. The thread Yabba had served this well, but without that, I can see there being more of this crap polluting the forum. What makes it worse is it seems to be coming from a lot of new posters who don't really know how to create a good thread, and seem so mentally overencumbered they strike up a flame war instead.

 

[Yabba]

Imma be honest, the only trans thread I remember existing was Trans: Yes or No by @Yabba , he deleted it due to an off-hand drunken comment (as was described by the poster of said comment) criticizing those types of threads. Ironically said poster didn't actually want the thread deleted, but what's done is done.

I stand by my decision as the best possible action for the continued health of the forum.

Plus keeping my replies in a cluster helps new viewers to catch up quickly

Believe it or not but you can put multiple replies to multiple posts, in the same post!

The thread Yabba had served this well, but without that, I can see there being more of this crap polluting the forum.

No, I believe that the popularity of the thread, led to an increase in discussion in other threads. This is because, the thread was always on the top of the What's New page.

 

[AlienHoliday]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022395610001585?via%3Dihub

 

[Pacing Tape]

There is a lot to cover but I find the logic of the transgender community to be flawed. Please note that I am not transphobic, my opinion is simply not in support of the transgender community. Transgenderism is also known as gender identity disorder (GID).

I agree largely with your first two points; it is rather silly to allow a child to make a drastic decision, particularly one which affects one's own ability to procreate, especially without parental influence, but I would go so far as to say that chemical/surgical transitions simply should not be an option to minors. They lack understanding of their own body and their brain has yet to mature enough to make a rational decision about it, or to accept themselves as you denote later. However, I fundamentally disagree with the notion of a transgender "community" or "ideology". Simply being trans, or feeling like you don't fit your original/any gender norms isn't enough to compose an ideology. "Pushing" trans acceptance really isn't enough either, and I would say what you're really disagreeing with here isn't trans-ness or any kind of trans ideology, it's a facet of western Neo-liberalism. (buzzword!)

To me transgender ideology is the rationalization of gender dysphoria or gender envy as identity. They even have a way to say they aren't any gender or are somewhere in between genders or are both at once or are something else entirely. Kinship seems to be linked with the trans community from what I've seen in their safe spaces (note that I simply entered them for research but did not post since I most likely would not be welcome) which kinship itself seems a little silly to me, that's where the vine of the guy standing on the pier saying they identify as a wolf comes from. All of these extra identities are entirely mental and aren't really based in the real world, they are constructs and they feel extra or not useful for our youth to grow up learning or identifying with.

Secondarily, even if one were to argue that modern, western academia is entirely too socialized and politically motivated, it's not a recent thing in sociology, philosophy, or any other people-centric branch to say that gender norms, especially in a post-industrial society where one does not have to subsist of your own accord based on your own physicality and communal value, standard male/female gender roles are just as constructed. Yes they serve a role in survival, but if we've put all this time and societal effort into creating a society where one doesn't have to fight against nature on a daily basis, there's hardly any reason that we'd have to stick to those roles when they're no longer a necessity. It's also worth mentioning that people who identify as trans are no more than 3% of the population in any country. Even in the United States, where one would assume "trans ideology" to be the most prevalent, in the state with the highest percent of trans citizens, Hawaii, the number is only 0.57%. (The only exception to this is Washington DC, with 2.03%. However, this is a poor example to use, because DC only has about ~689,000 people, and these statistics are by population density.)

3. Another claim is that therapy just doesn't work.
-Transgender people will spend their entire lives having their choice (if you can call it theirs) attacked. Does it not then make sense that they would view therapy designed to help them abandon that choice in favor of being comfortable in their own body as an attack on their self? If they are told their choices are wrong, over and over, why then would saying the same thing but in a context in their best interest be viewed as different from an attack? Therapy will not work once the transgender ideal takes hold unless the individual is receptive to criticism.
-Therapy only works if the individual WANTS to change. Only if they want to be comfortable in their own body does therapy have a chance of realizing it. But the problem is, these people are disgusted by their bodies. They could not be further from successful therapy. They don't want to be comfortable with something that already seems ugly.
-Only when a transgender person realizes that they only see their body as ugly because of confusion, poor body image, or self esteem can they accept that they might not be viewing themselves correctly. That's when therapy will work. When they're ready to change. Should we not preach self acceptance of our bodies before acceptance of the difference between our body and our feelings?

If you made it this far, I'm proud of you. You are a true intellectual to read the entire argument, and I respect you as an individual. The approach for helping the transgender person should not be to force them through therapy or transitioning but to educate them as much as possible about themselves and to teach them self love so they never question or doubt themselves in the first place.

This is a very flawed argument. There is no substance or positive precedent to the idea that rather than getting rid of the attack you mention here, and pushing for social acceptance of people, that one should simply remove them entirely. An attack on a group does not mean the group being targeted is bad, that is inherently illogical. That branch of thinking is very easily misused to lobby for the genocide of an ethnic group, or even anyone considered a "wrong-thinker/thought criminal". The issue of transgender people being attacked for an aspect of the self is not their existence, it is that people are unwilling to accept that others may not be the same type of person they are. I don't mean this to say that you're committing a thought crime or you're a nazi or anything of the sort, but the sentiment you're describing here is, put most simply, that you do not think others can be a certain way, because it somehow conflicts with your own ideology, religion, or personal ethics. Blanketly "educating" people on how they are the incorrect type of person because western politics thinks everyone should be like them is a poor way to go about it. That reads exactly the same as the type of person you're decrying in this thread telling people on Twitter to "be better" or "educate yourself".

I'd also ask what sort of ethical stance you're taking here, because I can't think of one where someone's personal decisions, which cause no harm to others or greater societal health, especially simply by virtue of their own existence, is a justified reason to advocate they be made to abandon an aspect of their individual identity. At most, one might say they are a danger to themselves by virtue of the high suicide statistics, but how will continuing to tell people their identity is invalid solve the problem? That will only make them more against therapy. The most popular methods of ethics, (Libertarianism, Utilitarianism, and Deontology) don't line up with this at all. At the end of the day, we all have the fundamental right to free will, and the approach of "fixing" other people because you disagree with the idea of their existence, because it violates your preconceived notions of what a person is, is rather similar to the justification of colonization by European settlers by way of the Social Contract. (The natives are not technically people and cannot help themselves or civilize themselves, so we must lay claim to their land to further our own efforts and civilize them.) There's not a solid argument to be made, even under the grounds of the first person to advocate for transgenderism in western society was a horrible piece of shit who drove a pair of twins (if I remember correctly) to suicide. That is very much the textbook definition of a logical fallacy. (Hero-Busting and Ad Hominem).

This may be circumstantial evidence, but I have a few friends that identify as non-binary. Particularly, I remember a day where we were doing some studying after class in one of the lobby of the main campus building, and there were a group of girls next to us talking about their distaste for trans people who change their names and pronouns frequently and people who don't just pick a side. While I can agree with that on some basic level, and it can be moderately annoying to have to change how you address someone, it really bothered my friend, because they felt like their identity was being invalidated. Sure, you could say they just need a thicker skin, but I'd urge you to consider that the people you're talking about are people. Practice empathy and understanding. There's no reason that the self is not transient and ephemeral. People constantly change, and changing in a certain way does not mean that you are changing the "wrong way".

 

[deepfreeze]

I find this obsession with "validation" to be extremely tiresome. You are entitled to do or believe whatever you want but it's not society's responsibility to validate those beliefs for you. And if you need society to validate your beliefs to feel secure in them that just means you yourself don't completely believe them.

 

[0-Star-Candy-0]

If "transgender ideology" is the belief that male and female are not categorically real then the people who cling to it are deeply confused about the world and their place in it. A more pertinent question is how do we help them deal with that confusion? Outside of targeted goodwill and a willingness to relate relevant experience I don't have any answers. To the extent that I've spoken with people irl who cling to transgenderism and other leftists notions I've come to except the fact that facts, logic, reason, and argument are not the correct approach. Those are for people who don't feel right about it but can't figure out how to put those feelings into words. True believers require a completely different approach if they are to be engaged at all.

I believe it starts with youth education. Our children need to be taught how to research a topic almost instinctively. This kind of knowledge will safeguard our youth against all kinds of ideological perils.

 

[0-Star-Candy-0]

I stand by my decision as the best possible action for the continued health of the forum.

Believe it or not but you can put multiple replies to multiple posts, in the same post!

No, I believe that the popularity of the thread, led to an increase in discussion in other threads. This is because, the thread was always on the top of the What's New page.

I am in desperate need of the knowledge of multiple replies in one post

 

[Andy Kaufman]

necro'ing is shamed on other forums

I hate this. There's literally no good argument against just using an old thread when it fits the purpose.
Even better when the people that get upset over necroing also tell others to use the search function.

 

[Yabba]

I am in desperate need of the knowledge of multiple replies in one post

I shall teach you the ways.
Step 1: Press the reply button on a post
Step 2: Press reply button on a different post.
Or
Step 1: Highlight the part of someone's post you want to quote.
Step 2: A reply button should show up beneath the highlighted text, click it.
Step 3: Repeat with other posts and or text.

 

[Hadrian Hardrada Cicero]

Any attempt to apply cognitive behavioral therapy to a transgender person's dysphoria is slandered as being like gay shock therapy, thus very few people are willing to risk their academic position for the sake of this research. This is pretty much what uncle meant about academics being oversocialized.
Anyway, we've already got a few transgender threads, this would've been better in one of them than in a new thread. Nobody on agora cares about necroposting.

Here we go again.

Honestly, maybe there should be a badge or something that only 'high quality' or if you want to use a less flattering word 'not-shitposters' allowed to post in controversial threads like this. But anyways.

Define transgender ideology

and

Yeah it seems to me insane, from what I've heard and I may just be going off by rumors here since I have no idea how the process actually works, that you can so easily get hormones therapy, like that should be your last option. I guess I don't share the mentality most people suffering from dysphoria have, and I suffer from dysphoria from time to time, that the immediate solution is to get hormone therapy. It's just so counterintuitive to me, if anything you'd want to try a lot of other avenues to quell your dysphoria before transition. If you're obese, getting liposuction should be one of your lasts resorts, something you try only after you'd tried loosing weight in many other ways (Though idk, maybe the obese community or whatever thinks liposuction is the go-to treatment).

When I suffered from anxious depression, trying treatments that didn't require meds was a priority, cause guess what, digesting pills that severely alter your body is really dangerous. In the end, I had to take pills, but it took a lot of trial and error to get to that point. Again, not a psychologist, but isn't that normally how it goes? Shouldn't your psychologist/psychiatrist be cautious about prescribing you pills, and something they do if they value that theres no better alternative? If so, trans people seemingly getting hormones on demand, if they're over 18 years old, seems backwards.

(But again, IDK I'm not a psychologist, this is not a hill I'm dying on)

Corruption in institutions leading to institutional decay and declining trusts for these places from the general public. I'm not kidding when I and many other people say that this sort of a tumor (if you will) has been going as early as the early 70s at best maybe. This factoring in government policies, legislation, and the creations of certain federal department and bureaus and you got a system that is chronically diseased by subpar to outright poor quality of thought and has put us in a catch-22 situation.

Other than a corrupted education system founded since 1979, there's also due to the expansion of Big Pharma thanks to three terrible healthcare related policies and organizations where now most doctors and psychiatrists are nothing more than just pilling popping pushers that totally never put in the consequences of giving patients what amounts to being hardcore drugs akin to say cannabis, LSD, crack, etc. but in the form of pharmaceuticals. Sadly this I'm gonna stop here as this subject in itself is a nasty can of worms but I believe is part of what's causing this whole trans phenomenon since the start of 2017 I believe.

can we have a thread about AOCs alleged Twitter alt instead
View attachment 58620

Y'know at my grandparent's house during my great Nana's birthday, I saw a relative there who looked like AOC, I doubt it was actually her but just a funny coincidence I thought I mention.

Double posting is acceptable conduct on a forum sometimes, if multiple messages is a better way to conduct a post than a single message(and even then, usually just edit unless enough time has passed). There's several reasons why posting more than twice is BAD PRACTICE on a forum. It is very disrespectful to the owners of the forum, as each new message adds more to be stored(time data, formatting data etc, not so relevant now, but in 2000s this was quite relevant). It is disrespectful to users on the site as you keep bumping this thread to the top of the new posts list. It is disrespectful to people reading the thread as you are wasting a lot of their vertical screen estate, and making it hard for them to reply to you. It is disrespectful for people searching the forums, as the search functionality functions on posts and each one of your posts pollutes that.

Additionally, use the search before making a new thread. If you had, you'd find multiple threads that address the topic already. I've done the hard work for you and I'll post them here:

1. https://forum.agoraroad.com/index.php?threads/deleuzian-analysis-of-transgenderism.5181/
2. https://forum.agoraroad.com/index.php?threads/lain-and-zoomers.5411/
3. https://forum.agoraroad.com/index.p...dont-see-the-connection-to-trans-people.5233/
4. There was a deleted thread by @Yabba recently that exhausted a lot of discussion about it

It's clear to me you're new to the forums as you've posted very little before. Respect the forum culture, don't mass bump threads, check for older threads before posting(necro'ing is shamed on other forums, but not so much here)... or people here will think you're a massive shithead. FYI, I already think you're a massive shithead from the way you've kept on bumping when others were telling you to stop. As for your OP, don't expect people to respond to it thoughtfully if you're shitting up the thread.

I also want to ask others who are reading this thread. Personally, I'm getting very sick of these "LGBTQ" and "Trans" threads and posts that I'm seeing more and more often- shouldn't there be a containment general thread for these discussions? I say containment because the threads linked above quickly derailed into flame wars. The thread Yabba had served this well, but without that, I can see there being more of this crap polluting the forum. What makes it worse is it seems to be coming from a lot of new posters who don't really know how to create a good thread, and seem so mentally overencumbered they strike up a flame war instead.

To be honest, with you, I don't blame a majority of you people. I too am tired of seeing the discussion of identity and identity politics on Agora as well. I'm personally partly to blame as well since two of my older threads while not entirely related, did had discussing about that stuff and I feel like I've may have alienated some people including a friend or two as well. That aside, unfortunately this board is where the politics should go unless we have pirate exclude any threads from this board from the featured thread list, we just gotta huff it and deal with it. So for now I'll just cease responding to this thread and focus on something else.

 

[Agoras Vagabond]

I believe it starts with youth education. Our children need to be taught how to research a topic almost instinctively. This kind of knowledge will safeguard our youth against all kinds of ideological perils.

Who's youth? America's?