"Being able to use a computer mouse is not considered standard knowledge in education"

[shinobu]

I don't know about stuff like domains and spiral abyss, since I pretty much treat this game as an exploration and climbing simulator.

Well, that's exactly why I wanted a private server too. It even has infinite stamina. Thanks, man

 

[manpaint]

Well, that's exactly why I wanted a private server too. It even has infinite stamina. Thanks, man

No problemo.

 

[Dolfin]

I think the root of the problem is rising complexity in how to use a computer coupled with many tasks becoming paperless-preferred.

People will typically take the perceived least costly route to execute a task; cost is in terms of not just money but time, effort required (physical/mental), risk, etc. The incompetent users we see today are the folks who would opt to do things without a computer if it were possible. In many cases, the computerized routes are more efficient, but it requires some knowledge of how to operate the machines. Learning how to parse a computer's interface when you don't already have an intuitive grasp of it drives the real cost of many tasks way up - yet, users still need to do the thing. There are three common ways out of this dilemma:

1. Become more familiar with computers - takes time and effort you could be spending watching Netflix or taking care of the kids instead, may as well not even be an option
2. Learn a specific workflow that accomplishes the task - more time-efficient and works fine until a web designer moves a button and upends your whole world
3. Get your Tech Guy to do it for you - wow thanks, it's like magic, they're a wizard, also they're secretly despondent about the computer-illiterate population and posting about it on a vaporwave forum but you don't know that

The above three options actually apply to many areas where solutions seem arcane and difficult to understand, regardless of if they actually are. This is because learning and retaining knowledge requires some time investment, and if someone feels their time is better invested doing something else, then they won't bother.

I pay to have my car maintained because I don't want to take the time to work on it and I have the option of paying someone else to do it. It doesn't help that car manufacturers deliberately make DIY repairs difficult to push drivers to their service centers, but I mostly would rather just do something else. Computers have some interface obfuscation and overcomplication going on to make the most common (says the marketing department) set of tasks a little more convenient and stop users from breaking their machines on accident, yet they're still not as simple to use as "turn key, change gear, push pedal, car go," so we get the worst of both worlds while Microsoft and Apple sprint even further down that road, chasing a computing experience as simple and streamlined as driving while ignoring the legion of "edge" cases that don't fall on that ever-narrowing lane.

 

[InsufferableCynic]

Sounds like people are as technically literate as they were 20 years ago. Surprise.

it's worse actually. People back then knew they were technically illiterate, so they would get someone else to help them. They knew computers were powerful, but wouldn't be able to unlock them without help.

Now, they know just enough to do barebones, basic things, and so that's all they use the machines for. Computers are just fun devices or """productivity""" (and I use the term lightly) tools, and nothing else.

 

[MrFiredragon613]

Its all fun and games until you see toddlers getting angry because when they swipe left on the pages of a real magazine it doesn't effortlessly slide like an ipad.

 

[bnuungus]

So yesterday I had a real realization that I could probably do really well in the IT world even without any training or prior experience in it. I had the fun task yesterday of trying to fix my nearly bricked computer after some things in the UI failed to load and a couple forced restarts made the entire computer freeze up. All I had to do to fix it was let the computer repair its disk and it ended up working again. The thing was that I realized that no one I know would have known how to do this and that most problems people go to IT for are problems I could easily fix. I'm nowhere near an expert on computers. I don't know anything about proxies or anything and the only time I've installed an OS was getting a Windows XP VirtualBox VM running. But with enough google searches, forum scouring, and tinkering around I can fix pretty much anything I come across (except for this dumbass adaptive brightness feature that's not actually adaptive brightness in the conventional sense on my work computer that shows up randomly. If anyone knows what I'm talking about please help me).

Anyways people look at what I do with computers and how I can solve problems for them and declare that I "know computers" even when I tell them that no I really don't and my music major friend has a much better understanding of them than my engineering ass does. I think I'm going to stop trying to correct people and just lean into the notion that I'm a computer wizard because it might be a lot more fun.

 

[manpaint]

I think I'm going to stop trying to correct people and just lean into the notion that I'm a computer wizard because it might be a lot more fun.

People often regard me as a computer wizard. I must admit there is some kind of fun in seeing how easily I can solve people's problem. Sometimes I even get paid for very basic task, like making a backup of family photos.

That being said, such behavior probably dosen't help the lack computer literacy.

 

[bnuungus]

People often regard me as a computer wizard. I must admit there is some kind of fun in seeing how easily I can solve people's problem. Sometimes I even get paid for very basic task, like making a backup of family photos.

That being said, such behavior probably dosen't help the lack computer literacy.

I need to figure out how to make this profitable.

 

[handoferis]

i used to bother with that and tired of it very quickly. now i claim i know nothing about windows, which isolates me from 95% of people moaning about tech problems

 

[InsufferableCynic]

I think I'm going to stop trying to correct people and just lean into the notion that I'm a computer wizard because it might be a lot more fun.

You should absolutely stop correcting people.

This is one of those cases where lying is actually the right thing to do.

Think about this: If you could fix someone's computer in 10 minutes (even if you charge them $25 for it), they are still far better off than if they ask if you can fix it, you say you're not a computer guy, so they pay some shitty IT "fix it 4 u" type company, only to have some even less qualified Indian drive over, spend 3 hours fixing their issue, install malware, then charge them $300

On this point, and unfortunately to get my point across I am going to need to toot my own horn here, but I am quite good with computers. I run Linux and am frequently installing operating systems, scripting around Windows issues on my dual-boot, and can program. I have a few people who see me as their "go to" computer guy, and I charge them very modest amounts (basically mates rates) to fix issues (I make sure not to do it for free, otherwise it will build a dependency relationship and they won't ever bother learning how to use the thing). The annoying thing is that, as someone who is actually good with computers, I am lumped in the same "computer whiz" bucket as people who know how to start Chrome from the task bar but who know little else. This is maddening sometimes - people don't actually listen to me because "oh my whiz kid son told me I just need to do this". This causes all sorts of issues. When I give technical advice (like hey, next time, instead of spending 40 minutes resetting everything, maybe use a password manager), it's lumped in with the deluge of wrong information given out by "whiz kids" and generally ends up not being followed.

This problem also has a knock on effect. Because people believe everyone (especially young people) are whiz kids, they trust them to do things like make their business website. The kid is excited because they just discovered AJAX or WordPress templates, so they put together this bloated monstrocity, and the business goes with it because "hey they're a genius with computers, we should trust their work".

I think another issue is that there are virtually no consequences to not learning how to use a computer. As a result, people don't bother. This is a false economy though because there ARE definite consequences, we just usually jump in to rescue people from themselves.

The computer industry is in desperate need of some gatekeeping.

 

[Collision]

Last time I tried to help someone who wasn't an immediate family member with their computer, I got threatened with a knife for my trouble.

 

[bnuungus]

The annoying thing is that, as someone who is actually good with computers, I am lumped in the same "computer whiz" bucket as people who know how to start Chrome from the task bar but who know little else.

haha get lumped in with me

(like hey, next time, instead of spending 40 minutes resetting everything, maybe use a password manager)

reject password managers. use pen and paper in a dedicated notebook

 

[Ross_Я]

What are your thoughts?

They can be surmised as something between "fuck, this can't be real" and "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WE ARE LIVING IN IDIOCRACY!"

A touch screen is no different than a mouse. It's an input device used to interface with a computer. Both are intuitive enough not to require classes IMO.

I guess the alarming thing here is that kids are "always on they phones" now...

No, IMO the most alarming thing here is the fact that people are apparently ready to pay for classes that will teach them how to use a three-button device. It is quite close to the square-circle-triangle kind of a situation, and somehow people need classes to solve that.

So yesterday I had a real realization that I could probably do really well in the IT world even without any training or prior experience in it. I had the fun task yesterday of trying to fix my nearly bricked computer after some things in the UI failed to load and a couple forced restarts made the entire computer freeze up. All I had to do to fix it was let the computer repair its disk and it ended up working again. The thing was that I realized that no one I know would have known how to do this and that most problems people go to IT for are problems I could easily fix. I'm nowhere near an expert on computers. I don't know anything about proxies or anything and the only time I've installed an OS was getting a Windows XP VirtualBox VM running. But with enough google searches, forum scouring, and tinkering around I can fix pretty much anything I come across (except for this dumbass adaptive brightness feature that's not actually adaptive brightness in the conventional sense on my work computer that shows up randomly. If anyone knows what I'm talking about please help me).

IT grades:
1) You do not know computers can attempt to repair their disks. / What's a forum?
2) You do know computers can attempt to repair their disks. / I can fix my problems by searching forums.
3) You do know that computer attempting to repair its disk can actually make it worse. / I've tried to search for this problem in the web and I found a forum, but the last reply was in 1999...
4) You do know computers can attempt to repair their disks, but you do not trust them to do so. / The problems I fix cannot be found in the web anyway, so why bother searching.

Adaptive brighness seems like something that can be turned off through monitor menu, albeit I'm a year too late with this advice, I guess.

 

[llillilll]

I never saw a "not tech savy" guy read one error pop up, you can fix 90% of issues if you read the error message but most the tech illiterate hate reading soo when they see a error prompt they close it at worst or ignore it at best. From my sister that does art to a guy in a comp-sci course.
The latter story is genuinely amazing. A friend messages me, he says his friend can't write to office word on his tablet. My first thought was his keyboard was malfunctioning soo i told him to open his keyboard and write something to the browser but he instead sent me a SS of a office 365 tab with "you have to purchase office 365 to edit documents" written as a popup at top.

 

[punisheddead]

What are your thoughts?

It's moderately worrisome but a problem that's existed for a while now that's only getting worse. I've personally stopped fighting against that and embraced it, using it to my advantage. I can turn my rudimentary computer skills and problem solving ability into "advanced computer literacy". Because knowing how to read and interpret help documentation, googling, setting up basic networking and a printer apparently needs a year long course at this point. The schizo part of me thinks that kids have been ruined like this just so that corpos can sell courses to learn fundamentals.

and learn how to use files and folders

I've posted this before on my other account but this is a real problem https://futurism.com/the-byte/gen-z-kids-file-systems

Both are intuitive enough not to require classes IMO.

I would think so too, but I've had a different experience. Just like boomers struggled with touch screens some zoomers do in fact struggle with a mouse.

So yesterday I had a real realization that I could probably do really well in the IT world even without any training or prior experience in it.

Majority of IT fundamentals (like basic admin and help desk work) just involves knowing some of the basics that you mostly learn through general use and a problem solving ability. So yeah you probably could, many people probably could but there seems to be a widespread lack of fundamental problem solving. What's caused it is still a mystery.

 

[handoferis]

I've posted this before on my other account but this is a real problem https://futurism.com/the-byte/gen-z-kids-file-systems

These kids need to learn the pain of saving documents with keyboard-mash names and then having to go trawling for the thing you thought wasn't important with no full-text search.

 

[Some_porcupine]

can you add link here to the thread about *Gen Z is done for / has no education (comp skills, i think, was the topic now)* (fuck myself with those names) ?

• https://forum.agoraroad.com/index.php?threads/does-the-zoomer-generation-have-zero-tech-skills.5980/

 

[nsequeira119]

I heard about the students who were unable to browse files. I guess it's probably not clickbait, it's certainly possible- but back when I was in high school everyone was constantly being told that they had to learn code. I remember specifically there were books about it and classes about it, and the code classes were weighted specifically toward getting a diploma. So in my district, anyway, computer science was prioritized.

I dunno how Gen Z or Gen Alpha rate, in general, as far as being able to use technology. I imagine it would be kind of difficult to use most apps on a typical cellphone without knowing what a file directory was- after all, to upload something to Instagram or whatever, you have to go into files, the same way you have to do on desktop. I don't think it would be practical to design it any other way, it's good to have a general file repository storage space separate from the Internet that you can still access if the Internet is off. I think most people, if they were told what a file directory serves as, would agree with me on that. A lot of tech companies these days are marketing "the cloud" as a viable alternative, but this is really just a pipe dream and the same general idea as torrenting, which has been around for decades with an unjust negative connotation.

I think the main issue with teaching people how computers work is that computers are needlessly complex and full of unnecessary crap. The tech monopolies have seen to that. If you actually wanted to teach someone how computers work, you would want to first introduce them to the really simple ones, starting out with the Abacus and the Antikythera mechanism, moving on to the punch-card models of the 50s and 60s, and then building up from Windows 1.0 up until the current version, along with MacOS and Linux. You would have to let people learn how computers evolved into what they are now, let the knowledge of current day people evolve alongside historical knowledge- but obviously that would take way too much time. These days, we try and introduce people to Windows 11 right away, as if anyone can understand what the Hell Windows 11 is comprised of right off the bat. You can only understand complicated terms if you understand simple terms first.

I don't think young people are very computer illiterate, but I don't think we necessarily need to be- if people's knowledge of how computers work downgrades a little and they get a little too complex for us to operate on or repair, we could always just go back to good ol' Windows 98- it's still perfectly viable, functional technology, with simple, basic, accurate programming- and a lot easier to navigate.

 

[Ross_Я]

A lot of tech companies these days are marketing "the cloud" as a viable alternative, but this is really just a pipe dream and the same general idea as torrenting,

Please, do explain how cloud storage is the same general idea as torrenting, as they seem like two completely different technologies to me.

If you actually wanted to teach someone how computers work, you would want to first introduce them to the really simple ones, starting out with the Abacus and the Antikythera mechanism, moving on to the punch-card models of the 50s and 60s, and then building up from Windows 1.0 up until the current version, along with MacOS and Linux. You would have to let people learn how computers evolved into what they are now, let the knowledge of current day people evolve alongside historical knowledge- but obviously that would take way too much time.

I do not think you quite understand what you are talking about. It seems like you understand the general idea, but going as far as to Abacus and the Antikythera and punch-cards is unnecessary and actually counter-productive, because those mechanisms are way different from PCs. I never gave a fuck how Antikythera works - why the fuck should I even care.
And then you skip right to Windows 1.0. No, just no. Windows has been known as "MustDie" during the 90's around these places for a reason. If anything, you should throw UI out of the window and start with DOS. If anything, people need to learn at least the basics of command line principles. This will give them a lot of basic knowledge, including knowledge on file storage without a convinient search bar.
And even after DOS, you really do not need to learn Windows to know how Linux works. I'm not even sure if knowledge of DOS wouldn't be conunter-productive if you ultimately aim to learn Linux. These OSes are different from the start, and you learning Windows from 1.0 to 11 will barely help you anyhow with Linux.

 

[2bitDeparture]

The computer industry is in desperate need of some gatekeeping.

Fully agree with this one.

What's caused [widespread lack of fundamental problem solving] is still a mystery.

I think the the cause here is the lack of the afforementioned gate keeping. Or I gues a better way to put it: the cause here is the increase of walking users through every little thing holding their hand the whole way instead of letting them figure stuff out themselves.

Basically I think "stupid users" are something that for the most part the "Technology Industry" has brought upon itself through treating users as idiots.

You notice it in Windows, with the fluffy "we're getting windows ready for you" messages, and the horrific "S mode"(this one really is something else....).. the same "user is an idiot" mentality can be found in Apple products, Android, and even a lot of FOSS projects.. its pretty much everywhere.

Its noticable in Google searches, just a few years ago it wasn't that hard to find forums and articles regarding some of the more niche IT related issues- you'd plug in a few words scroll a bit and more often than not you'd get on the right track pretty quick.. now if I want actually find anything related at all to what I'm looking for aside from the most popular results I have to fight the algorithm by explicitly quoting almost everything(though this part might be more related to walling off information and the whole Potemkin Village stuff)

Heck the place you really notice it is anywhere using 'algorithims' or now 'AI'. We're no longer just dealing with treating users like they don't know how figure other things out, but now we're to the point of treating users like they don't know how to use their own brain and think. Take any social media now and it is no longer a personally curated chronological feed, its just a bunch of algorithm driven reccomendations, half of which aren't even from people or channels you follow... because you know, the user is to stupid to choose what they are entertained by so we'll do it for them(I'm ignoring the time on the platform = money part here).

There've been an increase of what I guess you could call "productivity AI"?, I'm talking stuff like M$ cop!lot, or for the customer service oriented stuff- theres a company called $pr!nklr thats pretty wide spread. These systems basically spoon feed employees their next action. Don't worry about that proposal, the AI will write it for you, you just have to sit there and click a few buttons. Oh, just got a call about some issue someone is having? here it seems similar to this other issue, just click this button to do the recommended fix... what's that? you don't know what the recommended fix does? ah that's ok you don't need to know anything.. you're just an idiot anyways..

ah...

I agree that just plain stupid exists, but I would argue that many of the people that are tech illiterate, are so only because they cant be bothered to actually learn it, since its no longer a requirement.


"Smart people use dumb devices, Smart devices make for dump people" - an old Surveyer dude I know that still measures in links, rods and chains