A meditation on: homogenous fantasy races depicted by actors of various races

[LostintheCycle]

You're spot-on there, I am a city-dwelling wanker. What live music piece?

https://forum.agoraroad.com/index.php?threads/the-efficacy-of-live-music.6351/

 

[nsequeira119]

https://forum.agoraroad.com/index.php?threads/the-efficacy-of-live-music.6351/

Oh, yeah, that one. It was originally posted at https://midnight.pub/posts/1173, I forgot I reposted it here. Very nice little essay. I'd say it's pretty good for one of my initial forays into nonfiction, it's over 3,000 words and communicates all my points pretty well. I enjoy being an urban navel-gazer.

At any rate, I think you misunderstood what I was saying about this post- I like the writing, whether it's nonsense or not- it's good prose and very snappy. A fine read. I enjoy reading nonsense, I think nonsense is undervalued.

 

[LostintheCycle]

At any rate, I think you misunderstood what I was saying about this post- I like the writing, whether it's nonsense or not- it's good prose and very snappy. A fine read. I enjoy reading nonsense, I think nonsense is undervalued.

Your comment had none of the praise that you have now. I wouldn't call it a misunderstanding... I'd call it a miscommunication

 

[nsequeira119]

Your comment had none of the praise that you have now. I wouldn't call it a misunderstanding... I'd call it a miscommunication

I literally called it wonderful, I don't know how you wouldn't consider that praise, or how you could attach any negative connotation to such an adjective.

Have you considered that maybe you're not so good at interpreting words?

 

[Punp]

This is wonderful, it takes a lot of talent to produce nonsense like this which tricks people into thinking it's AI generated

Ultimately, nothing can rival human-produced nonsense

This is wonderful, it takes a lot of talent to produce a worthless comment like this which tricks autistic users who can't read between the lines into thinking they're smart

Ultimately, nothing can rival an unchallenged autist at a keyboard

 

[Punp]

I literally called it wonderful, I don't know how you wouldn't consider that praise, or how you could attach any negative connotation to such an adjective.

Have you considered that maybe you're not so good at interpreting words?

Can you slapfight and masturbate on another thread please? This thread is about the interpretation of races in fantasy material. Cheers.

 

[Punp]

[Egyptology]

This was a fantastic article on Egyptology, thanks so much for contributing. I don't think my reply can do it justice for the sheer amount of energy and effort you put in.

Some things you touched on circles back to the original topic of the thread - depictions of races in media by races other than those depicted (having Egyptians as Nubians and vice-versa in the statuary).

I imagine there's some level of political requirement to be ruled by people who are similar to the population being ruled, especially with Shabaka - a racial outsider. You can see this even today with political leaders trying to appeal to their population by wearing a mask.

Here's an excellent example from eight years ago from then-British Primeminister forgot which football team he supported, allowing the mask to slip momentarily.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H_vgFcs1bk

 

[Ross_Я]

I imagine there's some level of political requirement to be ruled by people who are similar to the population being ruled, especially with Shabaka - a racial outsider. You can see this even today with political leaders trying to appeal to their population by wearing a mask.

Indeed, but the thing is, Egypt was very weak at the time. Nubian Dynasty didn't have to wear any masks at all - as has been proven by every subsequent conqueror.

The attitude of nubian pharaohs can be tied to the fact that Nubia previously has been conquered by Egypt... I'm not quite sure about the dates here and do not quite want to check them out, but, as far as I remember, either Thutmose I or Thutmose III conquered Nubia solidly, and that was New Kingdom, so at least for a few hundred years Nubia was pretty much fully fledged egyptian land, therefore it is not a strecth to propose the fact that some people there, by a twist of fate, could consider themselves as egyptian as any other by the time Nubian Dynasty came to rule Egypt. In fact, one of the theories about 25th Dynasty is that they come from a line of administrators whose family could've been pro-egyptian from the very start, when Egypt just conquered Nubia.

Anyway, we do know that there are some clearly egyptian temples and other pieces of undoubtfully egyptian culture (such as mummies and pyramids) that are found in Nubia, so at least some Nubian rulers clearly were quite influenced by Egypt for some time. Whether it was all just a facade or an honest fascination like mine is, obviously, a question that is reliably buried under the sands of time.

Frankly, Nubia under the New Kingdom is more interesting to me than New Kingdom itself. Unfortunately, so far I do not have much knowledge about the topic.

 

[stonehead]

I've always been frustrated about this. There is SO MUCH amazing history of African peoples on the continent of Africa. Making the Greeks and Romans black does nothing to advance equality. It just makes it look like black people have no history so they have to force themselves into the cultural history of others.

I watched Static Shock as a little kid. I remember the episode where they go to Africa and meet Anansi the Spider, a super hero based on Ghana mythology, being one of my favorites. Anansi's voice and attitude were super cool. That's why, broadly speaking, I'm in favor of representation/diversity. There are a lot of interesting stories and folklore out there, and using more of it as inspiration gives us better modern-day stories than Summer Action Movie #24. Also, when you're a kid, it really does just take a few fictional characters for you to grow up without horrible stereotypes of other people.

I'll add to your list the story of Yasuke, who served as Nobunaga's retainer in feudal Japan, after arriving as the servant to a missionary. It's not a story that could really have an all-black cast, just one I think is cool.

---

Also, not to be that guy, but in regards to @h00 's post, there were dark-skinned Africans in the Roman army. If you think about just how big Rome became, and how many different lands it conquered, becoming multicultural would be inevitable. There just weren't enough Italians to live everywhere that Rome conquered.

The word "Viking" was also basically a job description, not a people group. So while non-nordic vikings probably weren't enormously common, it's not a stretch (for me at least) to believe they existed.

---

The main thread topic is interesting to think about. In actual theater, I don't mind at all. The pool of potential actors is much smaller, and the suspension of disbelief is already much higher because the sets are already obviously fake.

In movies and comics, which are a bit more immersive, I'm not sure. There's an argument that it could be disrespectful to real-life historical figures, like Cleopatra, but usually these conversations are about fictional characters. I'm kinda cynical about stuff like the Disney remakes, and I think they're just trying to raise drama somehow. All press is good press and all that. When the ethnicity of the actor seems like a marketing decision, I start to withhold my support. I can see all the big execs laughing in their conference room, "now this will go trending on Twitter," and it makes my stomach turn a bit.

The only original idea I can add to the thread is that this might be similar to The Tiffany Problem. Women were named Tiffany in the medieval times, but because it feels like a modern name, a character named Tiffany would feel out of place in Lord of the Rings. Black actors playing Roman soldiers doesn't bother me personally, but even though they existed, it might feel out of place to the average movie-goer. I'm not exactly sure whose side of the argument this supports, just some baseless speculation.

Maximizing immersion vs finding the best actor is a tradeoff whose "correct" answer will vary from one instance to the other. Casting an actor as outrage-bait though is manipulative without any good upside (except maybe cynical ticket-sales).

 

[Ross_Я]

I watched Static Shock as a little kid. I remember the episode where they go to Africa and meet Anansi the Spider, a super hero based on Ghana mythology, being one of my favorites. Anansi's voice and attitude were super cool. That's why, broadly speaking, I'm in favor of representation/diversity. There are a lot of interesting stories and folklore out there, and using more of it as inspiration gives us better modern-day stories than Summer Action Movie #24. Also, when you're a kid, it really does just take a few fictional characters for you to grow up without horrible stereotypes of other people.

I'm pretty sure no one here is against diversity. I fucking love Blade. Or Spawn. But they were proper superheroes.
The problem in question is the problem of tokens and the fact that they are currently being absolutely shoven down our eyeballs. I mean, surely you've heard the drama about Oscar requirements?

Do the Oscars’ new rules mean no more movies about white people?

The Academy's new standards are aimed at long-term change.

www.vox.com

Gotta start being effective this year, by the way. I've heard so many jokes back when these news came out.
"There are two types of coffee: the one with cream and the one with an Oscar award."
I mean, really, it's absurd.

Also, not to be that guy, but in regards to @h00 's post, there were dark-skinned Africans in the Roman army. If you think about just how big Rome became, and how many different lands it conquered, becoming multicultural would be inevitable. There just weren't enough Italians to live everywhere that Rome conquered.

Well, if we are to dig deep, then it is impossible to actually say if that particular roman soldier could or could not be black. Like, I do not know where Rome was at the point depicted in the show. Maybe it wasn't that big at the moment.
And, I mean, it does somewhat matter, since we are talking about rewriting history, but, ultimately, the problem is, once again, about showing black people just because there's a requirement in the manual.

I think it's like the much-discussed "soul" of an artwork: people just feel when the representation is genuine.

 

[Sketch Relics]

I've always been frustrated about this. There is SO MUCH amazing history of African peoples on the continent of Africa. Making the Greeks and Romans black does nothing to advance equality. It just makes it look like black people have no history so they have to force themselves into the cultural history of others.

Another part of the issue is that the left effectively locked themselves and everyone else out of being able to make new stories based off existing African stories by proclaiming "cultural appropriation" anytime someone not related to the base culture tried to use them. Ironically, this just resulted in European based stuff being able to flood into fiction since no one gives a shit if someone remixes old European stories and effects. Like, has anyone ever bitched about Dark Souls using medieval inspired arms, aesthetics, and characters due to it being a Japanese made game? No.

I watched Static Shock as a little kid.

Static Shock was one of my favorites growing up, may it never be defiled with a shitty live action show.

 

[Punp]

Another part of the issue is that the left effectively locked themselves and everyone else out of being able to make new stories based off existing African stories by proclaiming "cultural appropriation" anytime someone not related to the base culture tried to use them. Ironically, this just resulted in European based stuff being able to flood into fiction since no one gives a shit if someone remixes old European stories and effects. Like, has anyone ever bitched about Dark Souls using medieval inspired arms, aesthetics, and characters due to it being a Japanese made game? No.


Static Shock was one of my favorites growing up, may it never be defiled with a shitty live action show.

Speaking of cultural appropriation - I've seen people using things from the internet, mostly old and discarded memes, in normie marketing and it pisses me off an unreasonable amount. You know the kind of thing. "Gaming"-themed bedding, emoji cakes, unicycle frogs on Facebook.

I can understand why people are so fretful about gatekeeping against "cultural appropriation" when one needs to adopt a manufactured idea of culture to fill the void in one's empty personality.

 

[Punp]

Black people as portrayed by the Japanese.

Toriyama: "This is a Japanese franchise. Made by Japanese people, for Japanese people. It's not your show. It's ours."

 

[AnHero]

I guess this is the thread to ask it. Is Obama an ogre?

 

[Vitnira]

To me, the beauty of fantasy (and sci-fi) is that one can comment on real world issues by taking them out of their context, removing our pre-coded associations, and make new interpretations based on that. And that's why I had to stop watching The Witcher early on. There is clear meaning to the elves being a minority seen as disgusting...oh but look, they have the same racial diversity as Harlem. How are they black? How does genetics work in this world? Does God roll dice on your skin tone and facial feature genetics but you still keep pointy ears? I need some goddamn explanations for how you've managed to break basic biology, because I'm used to typical fantasy tropes by now but not you breaking the standard rules of the world. If you just made them all one consistent race, whatever it was, I'd be focusing on the story content and not the batshit biology and clear woke ESG.

Even if normies can't articulate it, that's why it bothers them. At some point every fantasy will explain how their magic system works, or you have years of trope-definitions to do so. With this recent race-bending shit it's brand new and left for you to figure out. That is why wizards are believable within a fantasy settin and random diversity isn't. There is no attempt to explain it, because they don't want you to think about it.

House of the Dragon was a joke, because the whole schtick of the Targaryens was that they were inbred. And yet...racial diversity?? Why would you choose the TARGARYENS of ALL the houses to give the diversity treatment to?

These support my (somewhat batshit) conspiracy theory that the media apparatus is trying to unmoor us from basic biological reality at the expense of storytelling. Children don't have to look like their parents! Men can be women! Sex chromosomes are meaningless! Races aren't based on genetic reality! I don't want that to be the focus of the discussion, but I think that's why it's being pushed the way it is as opposed to celebrating each group's unique and wonderful history. And again, I think that's why it's bothering. It's not being pushed out of a genuine desire to help people or to make minorities more understandable and relatable.

But I will admit sometimes these things are simply ESG cash grabs. In my niche favorite D&D setting Eberron even the lefty fanbase made a big stink about how in the main Eberron 5e book a pale-skinned elf was depicted in the setting's drow outfit, and a drow (as in, ebony, not black) in the other elven group's attire. The rest of the book was filled with weird shit like black armless gnomes, and adding non-setting-related content (Eberron doesn't have guns, they gave the base artificer class - Eberron's signature class - in 5e a gun). This shows they wanted to push diversity for social justice points and didn't give two shits what the setting was.

I also think, like with LotR, I think there's a desire to shove black people in White People stuff because media doesn't think black-only content will sell...despite, as already mentioned, Static Shock. Black Panther seemed to do well too. But this sounds more like an excuse to me of the bullshit tier like "we can't have ginger superheroes because there aren't ginger actors so we'll just make them black".

We're going to see this trend as disgusting and racist in 20 years. I just hope there isn't a huge backswing in the opposite direction.

 

[Ross_Я]

We're going to see this trend as disgusting and racist in 20 years.

Can someone ask Vit to elaborate on this? I'm genuinely curious what makes her feel so confident about it and I'm pretty sure she blocked me since I invaded her anti-nostalgia thread. Pussy.

 

[Sketch Relics]

Can someone ask Vit to elaborate on this? I'm genuinely curious what makes her feel so confident about it and I'm pretty sure she blocked me since I invaded her anti-nostalgia thread. Pussy.

Merica has a tendency to get caught up in moral panics that it finds bad about 20 years after the fact, with prominent examples including the Salem witch trials, movies in general in the 30's, the absolute gutting of American comic books in the 60's (I think, may have been late 50's), the Satanic panic of the 80's, McCarthyism in the 50's (he actually turned out to be mostly correct ironically). It almost happened to video games in the 90's, but after the aforementioned satanic panic people were starting to catch on that this really wasn't a good thing and recognized that they shouldn't do so again. Providing enough counter force to prevent it from happening to vidya. The only reason the current panic has managed to make it as far as it has is because it's coming from the left side of the political spectrum rather than the right like it has in the past. So you have a bunch of idiots with no self reflection unable to recognize that they are doing the exact same thing that has NEVER been looked upon favorably in retrospect.

So the pattern goes, maybe after this time we can finally stop having this happen, or it will be the lefts turn to take a crack at it every decade idk.

 

[Ross_Я]

~snip~

I see. Peculiar, if anything. The only one I'm definitely aware about is the one about comic books. That was definitely a disaster.

 

[Vitnira]

Can someone ask Vit to elaborate on this? I'm genuinely curious what makes her feel so confident about it and I'm pretty sure she blocked me since I invaded her anti-nostalgia thread. Pussy.

You know, I unblocked you to explain since Punp mentioned it, then saw the "pussy".

You have a consistently shit attitude and I come here to chill. Arguments are fine, your piss-poor depressing attitude isn't. Fuck you, figure it out yourself if your tiny slavic brain can handle it after wasting your 3 functional brain cells bitching about everything in life.

 

[Ross_Я]

tiny slavic brain

Dude, I just can't walk past the fact that this seems like the absolute best thread to break the rule number 4 in.
Well, thanks to Punp for trying. I guess it's good she blocked me back so fast. Didn't want to, like, deceive her or anything.