Free will is a lesser influence on our lives compared to fate

[kami]

I believe that free will is a feature of human life. However, I believe that we have predetermined roles that we are meant to play. The further we stray from this purpose, the worse our lives become. For instance, if you are on a career path that is not your purpose, your experience in that career will continue to degrade. Worse bosses, worse clients/customers, more issues with co-workers, etc. I believe that this is a correcting bound of reality.

 

[Claweb]

I dunno what you mean with feature.
It's a rather new feature that mostly started in the 70's
Freedom or limitations are immediately set when you're born and come from parents.
You can build up skill "points" over time but need to focus on something to excel in it.
If you change your path you might also lose all previous skill "points" because they might become useless.

 

[kami]

I dunno what you mean with feature.

I mean to say that it is a part of the human experience.

I understand what you mean with free will coming into the zeitgeist in the twentieth-century, but I think that before that it was more that there were mental blocks that prevented humans from considering free will.

I think that the skill point piece is important to consider in terms of material-world physical knowledge, but I think that important, gnostic knowledge (i.e. wisdom, life-experience, etc.)

The more important thing to consider is that, re: free will in the 70's, humans may have lead existences that were not attuned to their purpose prior to that time, but they simply adjusted to the awfulness of straying from their path. Or, they changed their path in a way that was doable for someone in a more feudalistic experience (although I think our current world is just as feudal as before, simply remixed for modern sensibilities in a way that gives us the falsr perception of class mobility)

 

[Lolcow]

Fate will always make itself known to a person, even if delayed. In the modern world time is the only limiting factor. They are provided with support and unlimited opportunities, and any chosen path will be encouraged. They will continue on the path with further encouragement, reinforcing their decision and the conviction that it's what they want. The more effort they put in, the harder it is to deny the small reward. Eventually they hit a wall, feel cheated, and probably blame it on the system. Usually they end up concluding that they made the wrong decision. They turned away from their purpose. But they were never really given the decision, since they were given no means of determining the correct one. Once people were forced into classes. Bad moves had immediate consequences, and their purpose was realized automatically. Now they aren't permitted to realize until it's too late.

 

[赤い男]

I believe that free will is a feature of human life. However, I believe that we have predetermined roles that we are meant to play. The further we stray from this purpose, the worse our lives become. For instance, if you are on a career path that is not your purpose, your experience in that career will continue to degrade. Worse bosses, worse clients/customers, more issues with co-workers, etc. I believe that this is a correcting bound of reality.

Go fuck yourself Determinist retard, i'm the ruler of my own destiny and no fancy words are gonna change that.

 

[Voicedrew]

Here is my conjecture on the matter:

If you believe the universe is indeed only matter and particles, then determinism is certainly correct. It follows that if you know the condition of all particles in the universe, and you know how particles react with each other, then all events that have ever occurred were completely determined at the creation (or in this case inception)of the universe. If you are an atheist, and also believe in free will (what we call compatibalism), then you are being what Nietzsche would call "an intellectual coward". OP should not confuse this perspective with "fate". This is not fate; These are but the simple consequences of the materialist world view. Your consciousness, and your faculties responsible for decision-making, are really just a dillusion spurred on by the interaction of molecules in your brain. You never truly chose anything.

If, however, you believe in anything transcendental; A soul, God, or anything superordinate to the material universe, then Free will is plausible (although you certainly don't have to believe, Calvinists for example). Your will is a product of the soul; not confined to mere matter. A piece of God, your creator, still remains within you.

After re-reading OPs original post, I think he may not be talking about free will or determinism at all, actually. I think he might be talking about predestination. NOT the conversation I was hoping to have today. Alright guys, good talk.

 

[【ｄｉｅｔ ｄｅｉｔｙ】]

free will can only be defined as defiance of material impulses. there is nothing intrinsically good or bad about this, because material impulses are not predictably good or bad. "resist temptation" but of course you must also "trust your gut".

there's a "friends" episode where joey and phoebe try to figure out what a truly selfless action would be and, being dumb, they allow a bee to sting them. but bees eject there guts when they sting, and so even that action "takes away" from its source. I feel like it is similar with the free will discussion. the can will just keep getting kicked down the road.

I've had the thought that being "wrong on purpose" could be a yardstick for free will. like you could intentionally, loudly do or say something that's totally offensive to everyone, disadvantages yourself, as a desperate bid at free will at all costs. but then, what motivated you to do that? maybe some ego-starvation to feel superior, or to impose social power over other people and in some inside-out way, gain status. or perhaps by "being wrong," you make space for others to "be right," and they make a positive association with your idiocy. even doing some abhorrent action completely privately can become trapped in an internal psychological game. doing something "just" to express free will could operate within some deterministic closed circuit, where the gratification from believing your will is, in fact, free, is just an instrument of a broader survival system.

more importantly, what fucking difference does it make?

 

[no_chill]

I believe that we have predetermined roles that we are meant to play.

This is called Dharma in Hindu and Buddhism. It refers to the "duty" which comes down from above that you have to fullfill within your caste. For example, if you were a Shudra, than your Dharma is (in a nutshell) to find fullfillment in manual Labour.

It is not something that you are "forced" to do, but meant to do in harmony with your soul.

As a Brahmin, your dharma is to find fullfillment in spiritual work.

Theres different castes and subcastes. As well as some other specifics. Sri Krsna also said that its better to live your Dharma imperfectly, than someone elses Dharma with perfection. (Keep in mind this is highly condensed, you should read up on this whole concept yourself to fully grasp it)

So if you knew you were a Kshatriya, a warrior, but you can not fullfill this role in the modern times, than it is better to stay one and try it, than to become a Labourer or teacher even if you were able to fullfill this role fully for example. Because like you said, you will only find disappointment in straying from your dharma.

 

[Vitnira]

This is called Dharma in Hindu and Buddhism.

It is not something that you are "forced" to do, but meant to do in harmony with your soul.

And Dharma (as I'm sure you're aware but to give knowledge to OP) is an Indo-European concept that shows up in Germanic contexts as "Wyrd" (which is where we get the modern English word "weird" from - it's pronounced the same). Posting on an English-language forum denotes you have connection to Anglo culture, and concepts like Wyrd form an unconscious bedrock for our society. So even if it's not materially true, the existence of Wyrd is still True.

I personally believe that at a human level we have 'free will', but with enough knowledge all of our actions become deterministic. I've found I've gotten very good at predicting the actions of NPCs I interact with on a regular basis and wouldn't find it surprising if someone smarter than me could figure out mine.

The most valuable thing I've gotten out of studying pagan religion and philosophy was the concept of following my Wyrd. Life really does flow better if you do what you're supposed to be doing. Not what anyone tells you to do...but what you feel like you're supposed to be doing. Not what feels good either.

Many of our modern problems likely derive from our society's structure rendering us unable to follow our calling. Hell, it practically encourages the opposite. If you want to be a hero or warrior today, what just wars are you fighting? A doctor, your practice has to be focused around profit over healing. Scholars mostly go around these days preaching lies. It's a real shit situation.

 

[no_chill]

And Dharma (as I'm sure you're aware but to give knowledge to OP) is an Indo-European concept that shows up in Germanic contexts as "Wyrd"

Yes. Hinduism, the Vedas came down from Hyperborea. The same as the germanic race. However thanks to christianity and cataclysms this knowledge got lost. What we have today is only a fraction of the original knowledge. Even hinduism/ buddhism is a degenerated form but nonetheless the closest we have got to the original and how it was for thousands of years before the last reset.

I do appreciate encountering someone else aware of this and making the connection

Wyrd = Wird, something becomes. "Etwas wird"
The Y in german can also be pronounced as ü.
würde (low capital letter) = Would. Also
Würde (high capital letter)= Honour

 

[RisingThumb]

First let us look at the words Destiny and Fate. We say what has happened, was destined... was fated- but we look at ourselves as beings of free will, illusory or not it doesn't particularly matter. Thus our free will, creates our destiny, and our children shall see what was fated from our lives.

As for the point about the universe correcting those who are not following their destiny- perhaps a consideration that death is a destiny. We use the word destiny to reflect the future, but often it only reflects the past as it has happened as it cannot change and seemingly as a result of our free will and our way of acting was always destined to happen.

I subscribe to one belief regarding destiny, fate and free will. That if we had perfect knowledge, we could change our fate the same as Odin in the Runatal. Unfortunately we do not have pocket Mimirs to inform us as such.

 

[【ｄｉｅｔ ｄｅｉｔｙ】]

The most valuable thing I've gotten out of studying pagan religion and philosophy was the concept of following my Wyrd. Life really does flow better if you do what you're supposed to be doing. Not what anyone tells you to do...but what you feel like you're supposed to be doing. Not what feels good either.

I understand that indian caste system is determined by blood, with 0 inter-caste mobility. & even though jung advised that each of us had a critical responsibility to live our own lives, as literally no one else could do, he also made the claim that for a western mind to pursue integration via eastern means was folly, due to a fundamental spiritual incompatibility (euro "doing" vs. asian "being"). it is tough to determine soul-purpose based on intuition alone, because the mind-field is so crowded with conflicting influences that it seems an uphill battle to get a clean read on your own inner will, so in 21st century there's a greater effort required in order to detach from the great other enough to fully self-identify... do you think "what you feel like you're supposed to be doing" can be recognized as immediate impulses? or is deep contemplation and a/b testing necessary?

 

[Vitnira]

because the mind-field is so crowded with conflicting influences that it seems an uphill battle to get a clean read on your own inner will, so in 21st century there's a greater effort required in order to detach from the great other enough to fully self-identify... do you think "what you feel like you're supposed to be doing" can be recognized as immediate impulses? or is deep contemplation and a/b testing necessary?

Good points, I've spent a fair amount of time with introspective contemplation and that certainly made it easier to determine my Wyrd.

I'd liken the process to doing a spiritual No Nut. Abstinence from porn isn't enough because your mind can still envision furries and dickgirls and focus on them while fapping, you need to distance yourself from the tainted ideas. Imo this is easier with non-sexual memes (using it here in the Dawkins sense) where you don't need to totally cut yourself off from the source as long as you know you can be objective about it, but anything primal will need cutoffs. For example, I found I had a much healthier relationship with food after fasting 3 days/week for a few months and can categorize my eating into "need" and "pleasure".

 

[【ｄｉｅｔ ｄｅｉｔｙ】]

tainted ideas

this is my key conflict with the free will notion. What is the dividing line between the "tainted idea" and the "true self"? for you and I it is pretty obvious when some egregore has laid eggs in our brains and must be detoxed. but a lot of people are going to experience that poison as their own "true self". are they all wrong? only some? where's our geiger counter for this stuff? is it really just a vibe? my own impression is that when you strip every outside influence away, what's left is what's real. but I think many seekers, especially in 21st c., get stuck at this stage. western man needs to reenter the collective to realize the fruits of his self-knowledge. and idk if you've looked around but it's pretty bad out there

 

[Vitnira]

this is my key conflict with the free will notion. What is the dividing line between the "tainted idea" and the "true self"? for you and I it is pretty obvious when some egregore has laid eggs in our brains and must be detoxed. but a lot of people are going to experience that poison as their own "true self". are they wrong? where's our geiger counter for this stuff? is it really just a vibe?

This work is beyond the realm of anything objective or material and well into ethical philosophy. It's like asking if fucking your 12-year-old cousin is objectively unethical.

I've encountered some people that are so screwed it's effectively possible for them to find their inner map. There's others who are clearly on the path to damnation (a zoomie friend of mine who just joined IG because of his girlfriend and is slowly turning into an NPC). Only people in the second category can save themselves, and only if they want to.

 

[no_chill]

understand that indian caste system is determined by blood, with 0 inter-caste mobility

Caste system worked thousands of years ago but wont work today.

The ego is ruling and every human with a fraction of power, especially over others, turns into a tyrannt.

Every form of labour these days is the same as slavery. Even slaves had it better than us.
They were given shelter, food, women in turn for their physical labour all day. They only had to worry about one thing, working for their masters. They had every need fullfilled and a clear path laid out.

In modern times we don't. I dont get a land to build a farm and to sustain the community, I dont get a job, I must look for it myself, I don't get a woman (no I don't mean "state issued girlfriends" or en lieu incel mentality, if you think like this, kill yourself immediately) or being helped in raising a family. Women themselves need to slave away too, so theres barely time to spend to even find someone.

We only work for a need to survive, not for a need of fullfillment. Michelangelo didn't study art or achitecture he learned it, Nikola Tesla was a croat from the lowest ranks, Da Vinci an illegitimate child (A scandal in his days)

They all did things they were meant to do, in according with their talents. No arbitrary Academic system or social order similar to today held them back. No retarded "PhD required" stopped them from becoming the greatest minds of the world.

This is entirely impossible today. Even Nikola Tesla was almost expelled from the Technical Uni in Graz and would have become a hobo, because he got into fights with the Professors there who couldn't grasp the concept of his brushless Motor, and were too stuck up in their worthless academic titles. Overinflated Egos. That's what scientists are.

We don't work upwards towards transcendence but work downwards towards materialistic fullfillment.
Either ours or the ones of the boss. You are a drone. A number, meant not to work a job but to work a position. You are replaceable, and will be replaced. Every job is meaningless. And it will only continue to accelerate and get worse because people won't be doing anything agains it. In Legal Contracts, not replying or raising objections is a form of approval of it. And humans approve of being mindless materialistic slaves to cooperations and jews.

In German the word "Beruf" (Job) comes from "Berufung", Destiny/Vocation/Calling.

A job was a Destiny thousands of years ago. And still is. But today your destiny is to be a slave. Not a Master of yourself.

 

[Chipps]

We are all children of Causality. The movement of the universe. It will continue to flow into the future for all eternity. We will ride it onward.

I don't think fate is real because fate means that a future has been predetermined - which is impossible, as the future is a concept of our understanding of the preceding of causality. While it is certainly influenced by what is happening now, each thought that we have will change the trajectory, and we all influence it collectively. We will always have a destination, there will always be a future as long as we are here to see it, but the destination will be the same, whether or not you believe it to have a reason or not. Are we GOING to die, or are we FATED to die? Does it really matter, if the destination is the same?

 

[scaldanon]

And Dharma (as I'm sure you're aware but to give knowledge to OP) is an Indo-European concept that shows up in Germanic contexts as "Wyrd" (which is where we get the modern English word "weird" from - it's pronounced the same). Posting on an English-language forum denotes you have connection to Anglo culture, and concepts like Wyrd form an unconscious bedrock for our society. So even if it's not materially true, the existence of Wyrd is still True.

I personally believe that at a human level we have 'free will', but with enough knowledge all of our actions become deterministic. I've found I've gotten very good at predicting the actions of NPCs I interact with on a regular basis and wouldn't find it surprising if someone smarter than me could figure out mine.

The most valuable thing I've gotten out of studying pagan religion and philosophy was the concept of following my Wyrd. Life really does flow better if you do what you're supposed to be doing. Not what anyone tells you to do...but what you feel like you're supposed to be doing. Not what feels good either.

Many of our modern problems likely derive from our society's structure rendering us unable to follow our calling. Hell, it practically encourages the opposite. If you want to be a hero or warrior today, what just wars are you fighting? A doctor, your practice has to be focused around profit over healing. Scholars mostly go around these days preaching lies. It's a real shit situation.

I am very pleased to see some good indo-european thought here. Often, when I see people discussing such esoterica, the conversation is dominated with abrahamic ways of thinking, which is a shame.

Weird takes into account free will, while acknowledging that the whole web is inescapable as well. The secret to the free will / determinism question is that both are true and neither cancel each other out.