Old people who don't understand trends tend to ruin them

[Antoine]

Obviously, the definition of gatekeeping implies there is a community, so of course there are few non-social reasons, and it doesn't matter so much what they are anyway because the intentional application of it is for the betterment of a social group.
Anyway I can give you an example where you are wrong, however.
Some people may already know I am interested in poetry, I can't say the most obsessed, but probably more than 99.9% of the population.
I can't point to specific things, but something definitely happened to poetry. I have yearbooks from my high school that go back to the early noughties, and maybe it was the emo craze but the pages had a lot of poetry, but most surprising was that they were alright! That's just a sample of the high school students who had to write something for their school project. But somewhere it all went bad.
One I could possibly point to is Rupi Kaur, and that horrible book 'milk and honey'.

I actually have a copy of the book, I bought it to see the fuss, and I hated it. I believe poetry is a special word reserved for some literary work which specifically employs poetic form (not necessarily strictly) such as metre, rhyme, vocabulary, structures; to create imagery, story, emotions, expressions, etc. and what does not use poetic form is prose. Now, see for yourself if she writes poetry, I copied three randomly selected poems for you to see.

Spoiler: 1

the next time you
have your coffee black
you'll taste the bitter
state he left you in
it will make you weep
but you'll never
stop drinking
you'd rather have the
darkest parts of him
than have nothing

Spoiler: 2

he isn't coming back
whispered my head
he has to
sobbed my heart

Spoiler: 3

you've touched me
without even
touching me

If you seek out poetry written online, it is like this more or less. It is all about the same insipid topics (primarily venting anger or depression) without any desire to say something, and worse, without a sliver of poetic form, the defining feature of poetry.
I have spent so many hours across Wattpad, Tumblr, and FictionPress trying to find any soul who actually gives a crap about writing a decent poem, but I can't. I genuinely wanted to the whole time as well.
The reason this happened I imagine is because there wasn't enough 'Your poem was good, though at line X the ending feels stiff, and at line Y you break the rhyme scheme without a reason to, but I liked what you did with the Zth stanza', and too much 'Poetry can be what you want! I wrote a haiku, I learned to count syllables when I was six and am proud of it!'.
Now, it's a form that is reviled by normal people, made shallow by casuals, or has been mistreated by academia in their usual way (slam poetry, while containing some elements of poetic form, is heavily political, aggressive, and not very aesthetic)
I don't usually care about the 'community' of a hobby I am in and usually don't need to to enjoy it, but in this case it really does have an effect; it's made the quality of poetry written by the average amateur poet awful, thus ruining my hobby of reading amateur poetry.

Oh no, you bought Kaur's book. That's brutal.

Yes, poetry culture has clearly collapsed. But what specifically happened? Maybe collapses of cultures, subcultures, interests and scenes always follows a general pattern, but I think specifics are important. Especially since poetry largely died before the internet, or at least during a different time of it. And 'gatekeeping' is a very recent meme. What are they talking about, and is it what you're talking about?

Very interesting that you describe looking for and not finding people interested in poetry. Rather than asking what went wrong with everyone else, they weren't criticised enough or whatever, we should instead ask, what happened to you?

Are you interested in poetic form because there was enough 'Your poem was good, though at line X the ending feels stiff, and at line Y you break the rhyme scheme without a reason to, but I liked what you did with the Zth stanza'?

If that was it, what happened to people saying this? Where did you hear it and what happened to that? And if not, how did you find yourself liking and getting poetry in the way these people don't?

As you say, the experience of poetry is bad now. The average amateur poet is awful. But you said yourself the defining feature of poetry is absent. I want to ask you, do you think that these people should really even be called poets at all? Is poetry worse now or virtually dead, with some retarded new brown resentment thing going on that likes to call itself 'poetry' for credit going on during this death?

 

[Jodo_Fan]

It is all about the same insipid topics (primarily venting anger or depression) without any desire to say something, and worse, without a sliver of poetic form, the defining feature of poetry.

Yes, poetry culture has clearly collapsed. But what specifically happened? Maybe collapses of cultures, subcultures, interests and scenes always follows a general pattern, but I think specifics are important.

Despite the movement having produced my favourite poets, I think the collapse of form was inevitable once modernism became a thing in poetry. Modernists put aside traditional poetic structures and set about inventing their own, frequently with great success. Problem is, as so often seems to happen, succeeding generations took this turning away from tradition as a rejection of all forms, not an attempt at reinvention, and so the descent into poetic formless began. The obsession with the self and pain as a subject probably also has something to do with it. But I'm not sure how this trend came about.

And even worse, it's causes prices to go up.

Of course, those oldies who never stopped using their Walkmans or whatever also complain about prices going up. Except they blame those darn hipster kids. You, in other words.

 

[Antoine]

Despite the movement having produced my favourite poets, I think the collapse of form was inevitable once modernism became a thing in poetry. Modernists put aside traditional poetic structures and set about inventing their own, frequently with great success. Problem is, as so often seems to happen, succeeding generations took this turning away from tradition as a rejection of all forms, not an attempt at reinvention, and so the descent into poetic formless began. The obsession with the self and pain as a subject probably also has something to do with it. But I'm not sure how this trend came about.

Of course, those oldies who never stopped using their Walkmans or whatever also complain about prices going up. Except they blame those darn hipster kids. You, in other words.

Loosening of form and breakdowns of form tend to run together but I'm not inclined to see a necessary connection.

Allow me to perform my usual embrace of the third rail here. The collapse into formlessness does not run in a continuity with the higher experimentations which break free of form. White men moved beyond poetic form. Brown women destroy it. White men break free of musical form. "GAYmer word" destroy it. White men start reforming again after periods of experimentation of looseness. Everyone else just enjoys the malaise and chaos and rides that down to their natural state where they belong, babbling like retards in celebration of filth and calling that culture.

 

[LostintheCycle]

Oh no, you bought Kaur's book. That's brutal.

For $2 at the thrift store, I couldn't resist.

Yes, poetry culture has clearly collapsed. But what specifically happened? Maybe collapses of cultures, subcultures, interests and scenes always follows a general pattern, but I think specifics are important. Especially since poetry largely died before the internet, or at least during a different time of it. And 'gatekeeping' is a very recent meme. What are they talking about, and is it what you're talking about?

Very interesting that you describe looking for and not finding people interested in poetry. Rather than asking what went wrong with everyone else, they weren't criticised enough or whatever, we should instead ask, what happened to you?

Are you interested in poetic form because there was enough 'Your poem was good, though at line X the ending feels stiff, and at line Y you break the rhyme scheme without a reason to, but I liked what you did with the Zth stanza'?

If that was it, what happened to people saying this? Where did you hear it and what happened to that? And if not, how did you find yourself liking and getting poetry in the way these people don't?

As you say, the experience of poetry is bad now. The average amateur poet is awful. But you said yourself the defining feature of poetry is absent. I want to ask you, do you think that these people should really even be called poets at all? Is poetry worse now or virtually dead, with some retarded new brown resentment thing going on that likes to call itself 'poetry' for credit going on during this death?

My point in bringing up poetry was less to write on the subject and more to mull over an exception to what you said that there are no non-social reasons to gatekeep, though I agree that that is the general rule.
I will be completely upfront, I am only twenty, and I've been writing my little poems for about five or so? So I have a very narrow insight into poetry over the years, so please take what I say with a grain of salt, because it is speculative.
My journey with poetry was reclusive. After all I couldn't find anybody online who valued poetic form which I find important, nor any people in my circles, so I didn't get much 'Your poem was good, but...' from anyone except myself. My criticism of my own work is what made me get better, but it's not perfect coming from yourself, which is why it would be great for a community of poets to be willing to give each other well meaning critique, and spark discussions on poetic form, intentions, communication, etc...
I won't say poetry is dead, I think it's just in a trough, and maybe sometime far off in the future it will return and flourish earnestly.

The obsession with the self and pain as a subject probably also has something to do with it. But I'm not sure how this trend came about.

I was going to touch on this too but I don't think I did. People like to write about themselves, it doesn't mean people want to read. It seems egotistical and there is nothing really interesting to say on it in any case, and it's because of our culture's gross obsession with a meaningless ideal of 'self-expression'.

 

[Jodo_Fan]

Loosening of form and breakdowns of form tend to run together but I'm not inclined to see a necessary connection.

Allow me to perform my usual embrace of the third rail here. The collapse into formlessness does not run in a continuity with the higher experimentations which break free of form. White men moved beyond poetic form. Brown women destroy it. White men break free of musical form. "GAYmer word" destroy it. White men start reforming again after periods of experimentation of looseness. Everyone else just enjoys the malaise and chaos and rides that down to their natural state where they belong, babbling like retards in celebration of filth and calling that culture.

Yeah, I wouldn't say loosening of form and collapse go together, not necessarily. One may lead to the other, though. It probably depends on the state of the culture at the time.

The way I see it, form (the artificial sort, anyway) is a kind of self imposed limitation. And since at least some limitation is natural and unavoidable, I suppose the choice is between submitting yourself to a conscious set of limitations, like meter in poetry, or being controlled by unconscious ones, like limited technical abilities or a lack of understanding.

To the same point, maybe the third rail is avoided for good reason.... not least the preservation of understanding.... as I have no idea what relevance black woman and gay gamers have to the subject of bad poetry.

Lord, what a pompous reply! (EDIT: Mine, not yours.) (EDIT:EDIT: I've edited my reply to try sound slightly less pompous. Don't know if its worked)

 

[Jodo_Fan]

'Your poem was good, but...' from anyone except myself. My criticism of my own work is what made me get better,

For me, the cornerstone of talent, the one element you can't do without, is being able tell if your own work is a failure on not. It's a big deal. A lot of people just don't have this.

I was going to touch on this too but I don't think I did. People like to write about themselves, it doesn't mean people want to read. It seems egotistical and there is nothing really interesting to say on it in any case, and it's because of our culture's gross obsession with a meaningless ideal of 'self-expression'.

To paraphrase someone, "With the self as their sole subject, modern poets have taken to doing not much more than talking to themselves while resenting the lack of eavesdroppers."

 

[Antoine]

For $2 at the thrift store, I couldn't resist.

My point in bringing up poetry was less to write on the subject and more to mull over an exception to what you said that there are no non-social reasons to gatekeep, though I agree that that is the general rule.
I will be completely upfront, I am only twenty, and I've been writing my little poems for about five or so? So I have a very narrow insight into poetry over the years, so please take what I say with a grain of salt, because it is speculative.

You sound right enough to me. Don't worry. I know I'm reading you, not The Official History of Art.

My journey with poetry was reclusive. After all I couldn't find anybody online who valued poetic form which I find important, nor any people in my circles, so I didn't get much 'Your poem was good, but...' from anyone except myself. My criticism of my own work is what made me get better, but it's not perfect coming from yourself, which is why it would be great for a community of poets to be willing to give each other well meaning critique, and spark discussions on poetic form, intentions, communication, etc...
I won't say poetry is dead, I think it's just in a trough, and maybe sometime far off in the future it will return and flourish earnestly.

I was going to touch on this too but I don't think I did. People like to write about themselves, it doesn't mean people want to read. It seems egotistical and there is nothing really interesting to say on it in any case, and it's because of our culture's gross obsession with a meaningless ideal of 'self-expression'.

I sympathise strongly. It's very hard to find people to properly talk to online.

To me it sounds like the word you're after is serious. You want to be more serious about poetry, more into, get more out of it, do more with it. While most other people who claim to be into it, and are associating with it, inhabiting what are ostensibly poetry spaces, are offensively complacent, unserious, incurious, etc.

I'm very sorry to hear that you're not finding satisfying company. It's a great shame that spaces and scenes that were once shining lights to attract the mutually interested and serious people are all fallen now. Arguably that was a gatekeeping issue, I consider it more a consequence of ongoing cultural warfare. We can say that's semantic. We surely agree things mostly aren't good now.

I feel that to correct culture, from here at least, we do not gatekeep. We do the opposite. We go out and make as much human contact as possible. And from there we sift and sieve. We become fishers of men. Most of the discourse I'd like to participate in doesn't exist, so I have to find raw material and make it. I do not hide my intentions and works behind a gate. I put on regular flamboyant displays. I'm doing it right now. I'm not here to annoy or upset people, I'm looking for serious people who get what I'm doing. And so far... honestly successful. I only started going this consciously after basically coming to it by chance naturally. Have a history of showing up in places, befriending a few of the characters present, then leaving with them and doing the same at the next place. One friend has compared me to Daniel Plainview in this regard. I am here to drink Agora Road's milkshake.

I swear I've found people I still talk to months or years later after spontaneously deciding to challenge an entire thread on /v/ to a niche argument in which I believed I was the only one capable of a lucid opinion.

To you I would suggest, be the change you would like to see in poetry. This may turn out to be a rather lonely business. If so I'm genuinely sorry. But it's the only way out I see. If gatekeeping has a relevance to the state of things, it's in the past and what maybe could have worked then. Now is a time for pioneers and trail-blazers again. Pioneers of form and tradition.

Yeah, I wouldn't say loosening of form and collapse go together, not necessarily. One may lead to the other, though. It probably depends on the state of the culture at the time.

The way I see it, form (the artificial kind, anyway) is a kind of self imposed limitation. And since at least some limitation is natural and unavoidable, I suppose the choice is between submitting yourself to a conscious set of limitations, like meter in poetry, or being controlled by unconscious ones, like limited technical abilities or a lack of understanding.

Form creates new possibilities as it restricts. Even if we take an extreme form like say, Noh Theatre. Do I have to explain to you that there are certain things which can in fact only be done in those confines? Form allows for tradition and expectations. You can play off of conventions in novel ways. As you say, limitations are unavoidable. Freedom to transcend limitations does not lead to their abandonment by all who can think or would seek novelty.

Christopher McQuarrie made Way of the Gun in 2000 taking cues from old Westerns and noir because those traditions were both not exhausted, and came with established ideas and expectations that he could play off of. And additionally, he had things to say about them. The traditions were not dead because they had something of continuing interest to new artists. The actors are these young, new American types. Some guys wear suits. The guns are shiny and modern. The behaviour and manners are very 2000. But you can still see the western in it. You can still see Peckinpah. It's a kind of revision of revision almost. That's what tradition and form can do. Art starting at nothing refracts the world. Art in tradition refracts refraction.

I have access to all the art and media and games and toys ever made thanks to my computer and the internet and lately I'd rather read Umineko than look at anything else. Static pictures, text, sound, hitting the spacebar. This isn't a model that has succeeded once. This is an industry. A really cool one that can take and hold the attention of very sharp and cultured people for a long time.

To the same point, maybe the third rail is avoided for good reason.... not least the preservation of understanding.... as I have no idea what relevance black woman and gay gamers have to the subject of bad poetry.

They're the ones writing it.

And don't mind your tone. You don't sound pompous at all. It would be nice if people could relax around these subjects and dare to exercise some discernment without apology.

 

[Jodo_Fan]

Form creates new possibilities as it restricts. Even if we take an extreme form like say, Noh Theatre. Do I have to explain to you that there are certain things which can in fact only be done in those confines? Form allows for tradition and expectations. You can play off of conventions in novel ways. As you say, limitations are unavoidable. Freedom to transcend limitations does not lead to their abandonment by all who can think or would seek novelty.

Yes, I agree. Freedom to transcend artificial limitation does not automatically imply abandonment and dissolution. Valuing novelty, progress and self-expression above all, while disregarding tradition, and art's responsibility to its subject, however, does lead to abandonment and dissolution.

I suspect there could be bigger forces at play here than black woman writing poetry and gay men playing video games.

Art starting at nothing refracts the world. Art in tradition refracts refraction.

I don't want to be pedantic, but art starting at nothing is an impossibility, and I'm not sure what you mean by a refraction within a fraction.

I'd rather read Umineko than look at anything else. Static pictures, text, sound, hitting the spacebar. This isn't a model that has succeeded once. This is an industry. A really cool one that can take and hold the attention of very sharp and cultured people for a long time.

Maybe I should give visual novels a go sometime.

And don't mind your tone. You don't sound pompous at all.

Thanks. I must remember to try harder.

 

[Antice]

To me it sounds like the word you're after is serious. You want to be more serious about poetry, more into, get more out of it, do more with it. While most other people who claim to be into it, and are associating with it, inhabiting what are ostensibly poetry spaces, are offensively complacent, unserious, incurious, etc.

Positive reinforcement is goooooood buuuuuuuut

I feel that to correct culture, from here at least, we do not gatekeep. We do the opposite. We go out and make as much human contact as possible. And from there we sift and sieve. We become fishers of men. Most of the discourse I'd like to participate in doesn't exist, so I have to find raw material and make it. I do not hide my intentions and works behind a gate. I put on regular flamboyant displays. I'm doing it right now. I'm not here to annoy or upset people, I'm looking for serious people who get what I'm doing. And so far... honestly successful. I only started going this consciously after basically coming to it by chance naturally. Have a history of showing up in places, befriending a few of the characters present, then leaving with them and doing the same at the next place. One friend has compared me to Daniel Plainview in this regard. I am here to drink Agora Road's milkshake.

wtf. I'm just looking for answers to questions forgotten(/ponder) long ago. There is no need to reinvent the wheel or does every generation need to? I don't really care any more. Gatekeeping as a nature of a task/skill makes sense, but actively discriminating is just that. Some methods "to experience, evaluate and act" are not only subjectively wrong. We can tolerate them to some extent, most probably won't.
There is a big gap between elitism and meritocracy. To distinguish and set definition is preference. This is the Gatekeeping I'm referring to, the online definition is total bs.

You hide your intention with bad distinction and I see no trap or hook. Is this seriously a fight about dogma?
So far I'm evaluating and want to learn more.

Religious people call me "Seacher" or "Traveler" and always ask if I'm not tired and want to rest in the holy light, arms of Christ... I know the parts of my ideologies that are deeply dehumanizing, keeping them limited by persecuting bad/lazy faith actors.

 

[Antoine]

The internet children did not get involved in real life disciplines that require work, and which have offline gatekeepers (where real gatekeeping meant: keep people out who are incompetent). Consequently, they read about these various things and pretended they knew them, and then went on acting like that was the authentic skill/art/discipline/trad even though it wasn't. So of course, these amounted to nothing but 'social trends', and like any trend, a herd of cattle will inevitably show up, eat everything, and shit everywhere. You reap what you sow.

I agree that selection for competence is essential, but I believe that this didn't start with internet children. WW2 purge of half of humanity's thinkers followed by the GI Bill followed by Civil Rights I think took care of that pretty thoroughly.

 

[Some_porcupine]

That is very true, I've documented an ongoing war against esoteric traditions since the 1700s, which falls into this xenomorph strategy, where there is an organized effort to infiltrate and compromise a working system of high integrity. My point about the internet children was mainly to describe the hipster phenomenon where people aren't even trying to get involved and put the working years into a meritocracy discipline, they are just pretending they did.

i see
it is the same attempt to "eat the rich" -
every time

also, young people are giving up (/thread already),
because instead of "internet making us more free / free stuff, books, movies...), we ended up the same as those people (with high hopes, who wanted "free stuff") swore the internet to never become...
"they come for intiernet... and no one noticed"...

---

add.

Social Change and Modernity

https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft6000078s;chunk.id=0;doc.view=print

 

[Cammell]

I like that pooh shiesty and spottemgottem picture