The open sewer of "internet debates" is leaking into the forum

[Punp]

Every good thread I've joined lately has devolved into low-tier open internet "communism v capitalism" slapfight debates.

The "debates" are basically just namecalling with a "my mind won't be changed" superiority, while smugly debating the two option dichotomy: Stalin and Marx's communism vs Nazi fashwave capitalism (???)

This conversation actually comes in several flavours - religion, celebrities, politics, gender, sexuality, anime... but is almost always punctuated with "debate me".

Beware of this mindrot, because it comes from the wider internet and basically supplants actual conversation about mundane but personally important things in favour of empty circlejerking.

Note that it's almost always off topic, but in subtle and um ackshally ways.

 

[McGovern '72!]

I think too many people are the unfortunate combination of both terminally online and politically active, meaning they have all these ideas on how to change the world but no ability or desire to put them into practice. This means the only way they can do "praxis" is by debating other people with the same mindset, which just results in infinite petty shitfighting with arguments so dumb it makes you want to claw your eyes out.

As for why this shit is spilling onto agora, can't say, I haven't been here too long. But imo it's probably because of all the dead internet theory shlock being industrially pumped out by The Evil Media specifically to psychically torture the based schizo chads on agora. That's probably led to a bunch of losers who think they're geniuses flooding onto the forum, and those losers have a lot of big ideas but spend all day online, yadda yadda yadda 9/11 happens again.

 

[Punp]

I think too many people are the unfortunate combination of both terminally online and politically active, meaning they have all these ideas on how to change the world but no ability or desire to put them into practice. This means the only way they can do "praxis" is by debating other people with the same mindset, which just results in infinite petty shitfighting with arguments so dumb it makes you want to claw your eyes out.

As for why this shit is spilling onto agora, can't say, I haven't been here too long. But imo it's probably because of all the dead internet theory shlock being industrially pumped out by The Evil Media specifically to psychically torture the based schizo chads on agora. That's probably led to a bunch of losers who think they're geniuses flooding onto the forum, and those losers have a lot of big ideas but spend all day online, yadda yadda yadda 9/11 happens again.

Pseudo-intellectualism is an extension of the hybrotting* of the wider internet. Once the users are programmed with the obvious talking points they can just regurgitate in circles.

Praxis is a practical way of separating the worthwhile conversations from the worthless, but it isn't the full story.

There are interesting conversations to be had which teach us about ourselves and others beyond just those which can be put into practice, but the worthless "debates" seem to be based around flimsy recycled concepts with interchangeable cardboard cutout speakers delineated along lines of "us" vs "them".

The real purpose of these conversations seems to be fart huffing, but if you want a conspiracy I'd say it's a great way to destroy an online space with a combination of empty infighting and useless spam.


*hybrot, a "hybrid bot" - semi-intelligent machines made using small amounts of brain material in a pitri dish. Used here in a derogatory sense.

 

[COCKPIT BLUNTSMOKER]

Thanks for pointing it out so poignantly Punp (alliteration W). In my opinion if you're engaging in political or philosophical debate on the internet, you probably have a tragic lack of respect for your time on this Earth.

In any case I think these yappers should be mocked and ridiculed, and reminded that no one fucking cares about their opinion. I mean, may as well get our lulz in right? Maybe it would not be worth sacrificing potentially constructive threads to the altar of cheap chuckles. Thoughts on this?

 

[Punp]

Thanks for pointing it out so poignantly Punp (alliteration W). In my opinion if you're earnestly engaging in political or philosophical debate on the internet, you probably have a tragic lack of value and respect for your time on this Earth.

In any case I think these yappers should be mocked and ridiculed, and reminded that no one fucking cares about their opinion. I mean, may as well get our lulz in right? Maybe it would not be worth sacrificing potentially constructive threads to the altar of cheap chuckles. Thoughts on this?

Ironically eating shit is still eating shit. By engaging with the lowest posters you just have loads of low quality posts.

While bullying and gatekeeping good, the most devastating way to destroy someone on a forum is to ignore them.

If other people are interacting with them in good faith, perhaps then is your time to bully them out.

 

[manpaint]

I indeed noticed the same thing. I do not know if this is related or not, but I recently saw that some users were younger than the expected demographic. For instance there was a person who had only used Windows 10 in his life.

Now this isn't to say that every young person is a harbinger of the sewer, but this makes me wonder if some kind of shift happened? Like I know that in late 2023 or something, some popular youtubers made videos about "the need to return to the forums".

Granted, this could also just be IlluminatiPirate advertising on 4chan and accidentally attracting a few bad apples to this site. This is not the first time this happened.

As suggested in the other thread, I think we need to increase the gatekeeping a bit. While I generally agree on the ignore thing, I am concerned that this method do work if two trash users talks to each other, creating an endless loop of trash posts.

 

[Stêrka neo-cîhanê]

Dude we all know that Anarcho-Primitivism is the superior ideology

 

[llillilll]

More people you block more fun you will have reading the threads. You don't owe people your attention.

 

[mesaprotector]

Honestly this place is still better than most of the internet on that front, but yes, a lot of 4 page threads where 3½ pages are dedicated to needless off-topic shitslinging.

One crazy idea I just had is to limit any individual member to 2 posts per thread. If you can only make 2 posts they better count and "nuh uh culture war good" people will get buried. If you have more interesting stuff to say, make a new thread.

I'm not a fan of ignore/block. Sure, it's necessary once in a while, but often a bunch of people keep feeding the troll, so you end up reading a thread that's still mostly low-quality without any context for why it's that way.

 

[WKYK]

I'm not a fan of ignore/block. Sure, it's necessary once in a while, but often a bunch of people keep feeding the troll, so you end up reading a thread that's still mostly low-quality without any context for why it's that way.

agree, blocking throws off flow of the forum and ruins context making posts not make any sense

One crazy idea I just had is to limit any individual member to 2 posts per thread. If you can only make 2 posts they better count and "nuh uh culture war good" people will get buried. If you have more interesting stuff to say, make a new thread.

I've been saying this except with newfags. The first month on agora you should get one post a day, the second and third month maybe a few more. Very common theme on this website is newfags showing up, making shitposts/duplicate threads/political debates shitting up the whats new, then leaving forever. Remember the tranny thread? That entire issue started because one newfag started a flame war about mainstream politics. I swear I looked at one point and the dude had over 100 posts within his first few days. Look at any of the threads you are talking about. I havent been crazy active recently so I havent seen a recent example but I'd bet that whatever users are engaging in that stuff started here in 2024.

 

[Ross_Я]

More people you block more fun you will have reading the threads. You don't owe people your attention.

I beg to disagree. Like, so far I haven't blocked anyone. I know several names and avatars whose posts I just skip 99% of the time, but I still think it is good to lay off that block button. You never know, maybe one day even those people will write something interesting.
Personal preference, I think. I just dislike the block function.

 

[Mirchicom]

The comedic thing is the topics being argued are always either
A. They have no affect on
B. Have no affect on them
C. They cannot do anything about
D. A, B & C

Honestly, I get the idea of being passionate about something, of wanting to defend it,
but, this is the internet, nobody reading is going to care about twitter user MasterQueef's opinion on CountryA, this (made up on the spot) User is a fool and should be treated as such
but a concerning number of people on the internet at large don't know this, and treat their opinion as a personal attack on themselves,

I'd love if someone did an extended study into this and could find out why people are like this, it's never something that affects their lives personally either
I really do miss when the internet was more compartmentalized and not just everyone using the same 3 websites,
because at least then if I disliked some where's general userbase I could just hop to the next forum over and never have to deal with them again

also I agree with @mesaprotector this forum is far better (as far as I've seen) than the internet at large

 

[Fairykang]

I'm okay with Internet flame wars.

 

[Punp]

I beg to disagree. Like, so far I haven't blocked anyone. I know several names and avatars whose posts I just skip 99% of the time, but I still think it is good to lay off that block button. You never know, maybe one day even those people will write something interesting.
Personal preference, I think. I just dislike the block function.

I've blocked one user and I can confirm it hasn't made much of a difference to flow. Anyone who responds tends to quotepost and then it flags the post as blocked content but you can view it anyway. It's improved my experience of the forum, but I wish it was everyone's experience of the forum.

I'd love if someone did an extended study into this and could find out why people are like this,

Part of it is to do with children being on the internet. Nobody ever expects their debating partner to be twelve and gives them the same gravitas as the President or their favourite kpop member('s social media manager).

Kindness is a good way to avoid these sorts of back and forth. They need sidestepping, like picking up a penny by its edge instead of its face.

You can also tell the new users on the forum because of how they speak. You have a noticeable accent, for example.

 

[llillilll]

I beg to disagree. Like, so far I haven't blocked anyone. I know several names and avatars whose posts I just skip 99% of the time, but I still think it is good to lay off that block button. You never know, maybe one day even those people will write something interesting.
Personal preference, I think. I just dislike the block function.

I used to believe in that too but some people write really worthless posts irrelevant to if you are arguing with them or not.

For example, i have argued with insufferablecynic quite a while. We disagree on a lot of things yet his posts are good even thought i sometimes disagree with them. The information he posts will be different than his other posts soo you could learn something from him in B thread while you are arguing with in A.

Pickleman or no_chill on the other hand has one thought behind their posts. When you learn that everything they don't like is communist or american/woman/christianity respectively you know just about every post they will make. Why should i waste my precious time on the computer to read about a borderline cult member's hate against the cult's chosen enemy?

The stop killing video games thread was about a legal battle that had barely anything to do with culture wars, the thread was interesting in nature. A groups fight against the corporation monopolies turning video games into services(rent), the most capitalist concept ever. If his brain can turn that into a communist problem , i don't there could be any problem that isn't about communism for him.

As a kid i was in a islamic cult that hated jews, alevis, England and America with passion. Every fucking talk, every single one of them, turned into how bad these groups were and we would add random shit to make them look even worse even thought as i grew up i could see how most information we shared with each other was simply false, other members still believed them. These posters are no different than that were cultists around me, they choose a enemy group and try to make everything about these enemies. You hear 4-5 of their arguments and you can have a rough idea about how a conversation will go.

Time is too valuable to argue with cult members since only they themselves can help themselves out.

 

[赤い男]

 

[manpaint]

(...)
I've been saying this except with newfags.

I do agree that limiting the number of posts a new account could make would greatly reduce the trash. I support this idea. I propose tthat the limit would be 1 post per days until 3 months where normal posting is unlocked.

The stop killing video games thread was about a legal battle that had barely anything to do with culture wars, the thread was interesting in nature. A groups fight against the corporation monopolies turning video games into services(rent), the most capitalist concept ever. If his brain can turn that into a communist problem , i don't there could be any problem that isn't about communism for him.

Yeah that baffled me as well. This probably the last topic I thought would led into culture war bs.

I've blocked one user and I can confirm it hasn't made much of a difference to flow. Anyone who responds tends to quotepost and then it flags the post as blocked content but you can view it anyway. It's improved my experience of the forum, but I wish it was everyone's experience of the forum.

From my experience blocking 1 user is fine, but when a thread gets flooded with trash and you block the multiple offenders, all you get is normal users replying about said flame war. I am also not a fan of how showing one specific post of an account you blocked make show all the stuff you have blocked while you are in a given thread.

 

[Ross_Я]

Why should i waste my precious time on the computer to read about a borderline cult member's hate against the cult's chosen enemy?

...

Time is too valuable to argue with cult members since only they themselves can help themselves out.

That's the point though. You do not have to read them or argue with them. I mean, your position is understandable, but I'm speaking from experience: I know Vitnira blocked me too early. Despite our radically different views on several positions, we still managed to construct a meaningfull dialogue here and there after all (thanks to @Punp for PMing her to unblock me, by the way).
Ah, well, those are just my two cents. Personally I think it is kind of devalues the whole puprose of a forum, even if you are just blocking cultists. In my eyes, cultist are part of the... fauna, so to say.
Anyway, I don't anyhow insist. Will leave it at this.

 

[Mirchicom]

I do agree that limiting the number of posts a new account could make would greatly reduce the trash. I support this idea. I propose tthat the limit would be 1 post per days until 3 months where normal posting is unlocked.

Are you proposing one forum post per day? or just entirely one account post/reply post per day,
this along with the "181 word minimum" poll you posted, it's starting to sound more like you want a private group chat on discord than an online forum.

That and I have yet to see a singular post of yours that hasn't just been blatant nihilistic doom posting, which is arguably just as much pointless garbage as the shitter political threads you've been complaining about.
If you want better threads, make one, if you think someone's being a moron, point it out, but for the love of god just crying about it endlessly and proposing absurd arbitrary rules makes you just as bad,
because unlike Genshin Impact, nobody actually wants to log into a forum to say 1 thing per day for 10 minutes to check in on their daily grind, the idea is silly, any amount of serious thought going into it would help you realize as such, now granted a period of 10 or so days would be reasonable, but a quarter of a year? give me a singular good reason anyone would bother with that.
that wouldn't "filter out the bad people" it would make sure the only people making it through are chronically online schizophrenics.

I genuinely hope this is just you having a bad day and are just taking it out online for some reason, and not how you normally act as a person, because this is annoying to constantly see and I don't want to bother with using this websites block feature.

You can also tell the new users on the forum because of how they speak. You have a noticeable accent, for example.

The minimum age to use the internet should be 18 yeah, there is no good reason minors should be allowed anywhere online, it will damage their souls and lead them into dark paths (gacha games and war thunder)
that or online elitism, usually the politics is a side hustle, all are equally as bad in my eyes.

But yeah, when dealing with shitters I've always found it funny to just start being hyper positive towards them, it's like the online equivalent of bugs bunny kissing someone randomly, it usually shocks them out of it, but yeah being nice generally works, but sometimes I do feel like you need to just be rude to people or they'll take it as you silently supporting them, if not ignore it altogether,

If you're willing would you elaborate on the accent? the topic interests me as it's something I haven't thought about before, I haven't noticed anyone here typing in any specific way but I've also only been here for 2ish weeks

 

[llillilll]

You do not have to read them or argue with them. I mean, your position is understandable, but I'm speaking from experience

I believe i am blocking people well enough tbh, from the 10 people i blocked, i rarely see people quoting their posts for anything except culture wars.
If i see someone i blocked getting quoted in a positive context, i read their post and re-evaluate my block. I think i have unblocked 2-3 people in total.