On deceit: Why does honesty seem so scarce?

[COCKPIT BLUNTSMOKER]

Good evening Cafe. Maybe you can relate;

I feel like I'm on the receiving end of a lot more lies than I ought to be. For the past few years, as I've entered my 20s I've formed quite a few friendships that have been called into question, and sometimes ended, due to boldfaced lies or personal treachery.

The feeling of being manipulated by someone I hold dear is a feeling I hate, it's a feeling I'm familiar with, and it's a feeling I hate to be familiar with. In these situations the way forward is not often clear. I'm quite averse to confrontation (trauma), but I'm even more averse to letting my resentment burn a hole in my heart while maintaining a straight face.

I know so many of us are tired of this cycle, of building up trust and watching it be demolished again. It almost seems like an inevitability.

We are all flawed, and I don't exactly have a spotless record either. But I consider myself an integral person - I never manipulate others, I readily admit my faults, and I do my best to correct them.
Some people seem to lack a conscience when it comes to deception, taking advantage of friends, et cetera. I call these people snakes, because they seem to lack humanity. If I behaved like they did, I would cower from every mirror, I would not show my face in public. Even more confounding are individuals who present as morally sound for months, or even years, but eventually plant a dagger in your back and act like there isn't blood dripping off the blade.

Thinking about this, a lot of questions present themselves:

Are honest people really so few and far between, or are we looking in the wrong places?
What do you think drives people to betray others?
What are your strategies for mending relationships that have lost their trust?
Do we attract snakes, or do snakes attract us?

While I consider my own answers, I would be delighted to hear yours.

 

[Some_porcupine]

Young people (´84 - ´14 and on) giving up on life - Life under L.S.Capitalism - "Where is my Jetpack!" (Cancelled) Futures

thanks @WhiteSnake for birthing this idea edit: what this post is about (skipping the foreword from user W-S who ghosted me XD)...

forum.agoraroad.com

promises (millenial revolution and such)

Do you remember (Now Lost) "Future"?

Parallel thread with https://8chan.moe/404/res/17276.html Example: "internet will topple down *Patriarchy*!" related: https://forum.agoraroad.com/index.php?threads/young-people-%C2%B484-%C2%B414-and-on-giving-up-on-life-life-under-l-s-capitalism-where-is-my-jetpack-cancelled-futures.6412/...

forum.agoraroad.com

promises (frutiger aero or so)

 

[幽邃森林]

Are honest people really so few and far between, or are we looking in the wrong places?
What do you think drives people to betray others?
What are your strategies for mending relationships that have lost their trust?
Do we attract snakes, or do snakes attract us?

Shitty people can be hard to spot because obviously they are going to hide their intentions.

Are honest people few and far between? No.

What drives people to betray others? From my observation, culture and upbringing. If a person grew up in an environment where they are often betrayed or treated awfully, they will then do it to others. Their thinking is "I may as well backstab other people because other people will do it to me anyway."

What are my strategies for mending relationships? Honestly I don't know as I'm trying to do this now. If they are truly sorry, then I forgive but I don't forget. Even if these people work to get better, they often fail or it takes years to change. I think it's easier to just cut them out of my life, but I hope I'm wrong.

Do we attract snakes or do the snakes attract us? I think it's a mix. People with cluster B personality disorders thrive off of certain people. But I think most backstabbers are avoidable. One over used word is "red flag" because red flags are warnings but there are certain personality characteristics that are absolutely not warnings and are tells to get out (anger issues, gossipping about their own friends, past behavior).

As to where are the honest people? Well I really hate to sound elitist, but I find people who have their lives together as safe bets. People who are either emotionally or financially set.

 

[Ross_Я]

Well I really hate to sound elitist, but I find people who have their lives together as safe bets. People who are either emotionally or financially set.

Fun, to my experience that's a completely opposite thing.

 

[Chuffed]

There was a shift at some point, where the upside of being a snake outweighed consequences. Cause a car accident and don't have insurance? Say it was the other guy and you might walk away without penalty. Be a Karen in public? Get free stuff from businesses and martyr points on the internet. Being terrible is rewarded now.

 

[big_ping07]

similar to what Chuffed stated, consequences are almost nonexistent and sometimes morph into rewards.

i try to keep my mind clear of the negativity ruining our public spaces (i will spiral), but i've noticed opp behavior within my private spaces. it's disheartening; however, there are solutions.

to answer your questions:
i do not think that honest people are few and far between. honesty is a trait that everyone has the ability to possess. it might even be an inherent human quality. but like every ability, it can be neglected.

not entirely sure about the second question. it is likely related to upbringing. growing up in a space lacking empathy or where getting back at someone (double points if you get them back with grandeur) is viewed as law. being a shitface may even bring a sense of control to people that didn't have much control. like how bullies have usually been bullied. they turn the tables because they finally have that freedom and it feels soooooo good.

the strategies i implement are to remove people from my life, create distance, or talk to them.
i only remove people from my life if they actively make my life worse and bring little to no goodness into the relationship. for example, someone who always brings you down yet always asks you for a ride because they had their license suspended. again. kick this bitch out fr. there is no point in keeping them around.
i create distance with those that passively make my life worse. those who consistently flake on plans last second or talk about plans that don't involve you when you're right there. give less of yourself in these relationships. drop them down a level of the friendship tier. care about them less.
i talk to the people that i'm most hurt by. someone who you thought wouldn't hurt you. close friends or family. describe what their action was, how their action made you feel, and how it affected the way you view them. approach these people gently. i also incorporate retreat by spending time alone and ignoring them for a bit. given the time and space, these people will introspect and apologize. your sadness will hurt them. if it doesn't hurt them, return to strat 1 or 2.

i have no answer for your last question. i don't think either of those make sense. meeting a snake is up to chance or fate. it is up to you to filter this person out.

there is no way to control the public without having control of your private space. if more people reflected and acted within their direct relationships, it would bleed into societal norms. people stay being stepped on, stay bending to fit within the lives of the unworthy, stay ensuring the boat is un-rocked, stay feeling angry without doing anything about it. benefits far greater than the feeling of #winning as a snake will be received by being a more active and mindful participant of your own life.

 

[spronket]

Maybe this is just something you see in random online circles, but if you are honest/serious/not ironic about something it can be viewed as cringe. So you're not even safe from it online. People retreat behind their mask of irony.

In fleshspace, I feel anyone who is not at least a degree closer than acquaintance are dishonest with me, perhaps because they are always trying to get something out of the interaction. "Hey old buddy, can you help me with this?" they ask. "Sure!" I reply. I help them and then they never speak to me again. I guess I'm to blame in these interactions for expecting anything else, but I'd rather they didn't try to get chummy with me beforehand if they were just going to take advantage of me anyway. Thankfully, this has seldom occurred in any of my real friendships.

 

[幽邃森林]

i talk to the people that i'm most hurt by. someone who you thought wouldn't hurt you. close friends or family. describe what their action was, how their action made you feel, and how it affected the way you view them. approach these people gently. i also incorporate retreat by spending time alone and ignoring them for a bit. given the time and space, these people will introspect and apologize. your sadness will hurt them. if it doesn't hurt them, return to strat 1 or 2.

I use this strategy with people who are close to me and am noticing a huge problem. While they may eventually apologize and feel remorseful, it's only a matter of time before they break your trust again. And you can do yet another round of talking to them, they'll be remorseful again, but the cycle repeats. Some people are just too emotionally stunted to control their impulses.

It's like being friends with Dr. Jekyll. You may see traits that are good in him, but you can't get too close because it's a guarantee that Mr Hyde is going to appear.

 

[big_ping07]

It's like being friends with Dr. Jekyll. You may see traits that are good in him, but you can't get too close because it's a guarantee that Mr Hyde is going to appear.

ain't that the truth. that's unfortunately when they have to be cut out of your life or at least given less screentime lol.
the real ones will learn

 

[Amadis]

I personally think a big part of it is insecurity. People who have a hard time being honest are probably just trying to be someone else and hope you don't catch on to the ruse. I'm sorry if you're used to getting taken advantage of but its easy to make yourself a target when someone feels they have you completely fooled. One of the better ways to ease someone out is to prod at them a little in jest. See what upsets them and why. If they have a death-grip on their ego they probably would rather get one over on you than feel lesser.

Spoiler

dont try to be liked so much, people will like you regardless and you wont overextend on a worthless relationship

 

[microbyte]

We live in a rat utopia. As is viewed in the rat utopia experience as our world gets more and more abstracted, more and more crowded, more and more easy, people start to act more and more antisocial. People lying, violating the honor system that underscores the entirety of society is simply a consequence of our actions, of increasing the ease of everything.

 

[mesaprotector]

Honesty is scarce because you will get punished for being honest. Anyone who had strict parents knows that. This ain't a modern thing, it's been true since the beginning of time. I bet chimps lied too before we were around. My cat's great at it.

 

[幽邃森林]

Honesty is scarce because you will get punished for being honest. Anyone who had strict parents knows that. This ain't a modern thing, it's been true since the beginning of time. I bet chimps lied too before we were around. My cat's great at it.

Honesty benefits the society more than the individual. Take the Japanese society as an example. It's clear how they are able to enjoy perks in life that are not found anywhere in the world. They don't need to waste time, money, and energy taking countermeasures for someone trying to screw them over.

 

[Some_porcupine]

Honesty benefits the society more than the individual. Take the Japanese society as an example. It's clear how they are able to enjoy perks in life that are not found anywhere in the world. They don't need to waste time, money, and energy taking countermeasures for someone trying to screw them over.

or swedes
jante